Seals for cups and spindle and cups bottom bracket?

travis.harry@gmail.com

Have there been thin seals, rubber donuts, or gaskets that would rest
between the bearing cages and cups to reduce the amount of water that
can contaminate bottom bracket bearings? I wondered whether in wet
climates, say England, such existed, before sealed bottom brackets
appeared.

Harry Travis
USA

carlfogel@comcast.net

On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 13:48:14 -0700 (PDT), "travis.harry@gmail.com"
<travis.harry@gmail.com> wrote:

>Have there been thin seals, rubber donuts, or gaskets that would rest
>between the bearing cages and cups to reduce the amount of water that
>can contaminate bottom bracket bearings? I wondered whether in wet
>climates, say England, such existed, before sealed bottom brackets
>appeared.
>
>Harry Travis
>USA

Dear Harry,

Jobst discusses the seal question:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/sealed-bearings.html

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

A Muzi

travis.harry@gmail.com wrote:
> Have there been thin seals, rubber donuts, or gaskets that would rest
> between the bearing cages and cups to reduce the amount of water that
> can contaminate bottom bracket bearings? I wondered whether in wet
> climates, say England, such existed, before sealed bottom brackets
> appeared.

Those, and Campagnolo's reverse-spin cup grooves, were common at one
time. As Jobst notes, an effective seal has to bleed fluid out or else
it's bleeding fluid in. The cups for rubber seals have a shaped edge
which is different from a regular no-rubber-seal cup. Cups with those
seals are current items.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

Tom Kunich

<carlfogel@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:doho449pguh4khri4cp5n0i5o5rj698ket@4ax.com...
>
> Jobst discusses the seal question:
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/sealed-bearings.html

At the bottom of the page there's also a link to many other articles written
by Jobst Brandt and they are almost priceless.

Of course there are a few people on the group who are so jealous of Jobst's
reputation (the one for accuracy, not the one for friendly rivalry....) that
they would argue that he doesn't know what he's talking about.

But anyone that reads his stuff can appreciate it.

jim beam

carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 13:48:14 -0700 (PDT), "travis.harry@gmail.com"
> <travis.harry@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Have there been thin seals, rubber donuts, or gaskets that would rest
>> between the bearing cages and cups to reduce the amount of water that
>> can contaminate bottom bracket bearings? I wondered whether in wet
>> climates, say England, such existed, before sealed bottom brackets
>> appeared.
>>
>> Harry Travis
>> USA
>
> Dear Harry,
>
> Jobst discusses the seal question:
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/sealed-bearings.html
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel

but you need to be careful with that. as usual, jobst writes big
picture" while failing to observe small but important details. for
instance, some bearing "seals" are not full contact, and thus, do indeed
allow water to infiltrate.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/1110408641/

however, other seals are not only full contact, but double or even
triple row full contact, and unless there is a significant pressure
atmospheric pressure equalization problem, these seals are /very/
effective at excluding moisture.

jim beam

travis.harry@gmail.com wrote:
> Have there been thin seals, rubber donuts, or gaskets that would rest
> between the bearing cages and cups to reduce the amount of water that
> can contaminate bottom bracket bearings?

yes, there are several pre-cartridge designs that have them.


> I wondered whether in wet
> climates, say England, such existed, before sealed bottom brackets
> appeared.

trouble is, for those kind of bb's, the moisture usually gets into the
bearing from within, not without. i.e. down the seat tube, etc. the
best solution is to drill the bb to allow water an exit rather than keep
it in where it causes harm. many higher quality frames come with
pre-drilled bb's for exactly this purpose. particularly when used in
conjunction with marine grease, such a simple device is remarkably
effective.

_

On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 15:00:56 -0700, Tom Kunich wrote:

> <carlfogel@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:doho449pguh4khri4cp5n0i5o5rj698ket@4ax.com...
>>
>> Jobst discusses the seal question:
>> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/sealed-bearings.html
>
> At the bottom of the page there's also a link to many other articles written
> by Jobst Brandt and they are almost priceless.
>
> Of course there are a few people on the group who are so jealous of Jobst's
> reputation (the one for accuracy, not the one for friendly rivalry....) that
> they would argue that he doesn't know what he's talking about.
>

Sometimes I think he greps the cycling newsgroups, a la kibo, for any
mention of Jobst's name. If Jobst was 40 years younger, female, and a
news-reader on a local TV station there could be legal implications...

jim beam

_ wrote:
> On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 15:00:56 -0700, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>> <carlfogel@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:doho449pguh4khri4cp5n0i5o5rj698ket@4ax.com...
>>> Jobst discusses the seal question:
>>> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/sealed-bearings.html
>> At the bottom of the page there's also a link to many other articles written
>> by Jobst Brandt and they are almost priceless.
>>
>> Of course there are a few people on the group who are so jealous of Jobst's
>> reputation (the one for accuracy, not the one for friendly rivalry....) that
>> they would argue that he doesn't know what he's talking about.
>>
>
> Sometimes I think he greps the cycling newsgroups, a la kibo, for any
> mention of Jobst's name. If Jobst was 40 years younger, female, and a
> news-reader on a local TV station there could be legal implications...


how about people bothering to pay attention to factual accuracy? does
anybody here /ever/ care about that? does "tech" mean anything?

people that can sit on their fat ass and have smoke blown up their
skirts, [and say they /like/ it] have no right to complain.

travis.harry@gmail.com

On Jun 8, 9:44 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> travis.ha...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Have there been thin seals, rubber donuts, or gaskets that would rest
> > between the bearing cages and cups to reduce the amount of water that
> > can contaminate bottom bracket bearings?
>
> yes, there are several pre-cartridge designs that have them.
>
> > I wondered whether in wet
> > climates, say England, such existed, before sealed bottom brackets
> > appeared.
>
> trouble is, for those kind of bb's, the moisture usually gets into the
> bearing from within, not without. i.e. down the seat tube, etc. the
> best solution is to drill the bb to allow water an exit rather than keep
> it in where it causes harm. many higher quality frames come with
> pre-drilled bb's for exactly this purpose. particularly when used in
> conjunction with marine grease, such a simple device is remarkably
> effective.

I think I've read the complete Jobst Brandt. Doesn't help me much in
this inquiry.

This is really simple. I look at the gap between a Campy cup and the
spindle, and say: I'd like to reduce by 95% the amount of water that
creeps in when riding in the rain, and I'm willing to put out 5-50
times the number watts I'd save from switching from metal to ceramic
balls to do it. <smile> Even 5 watts. I don't expect the BB grease to
NOT get contaminated and soapy from water. I'd just like to extend the
service interval from 1000 miles and 2 months to 5000 miles and 1
year. Is there a teflon-coated neoprene-like gasket that will do
that?

Let me put it another way: Lizard Skins sells a big condom for your
headset bearings. Does it increase friction? No doubt. Leak-proof.
Probably not. Reduce headset maintenance? Likely.

Or, Andrew: If you put super-heavy grease between the ball bearing
carrier and the cup: Does/would that reduce water contamination?


Harry Travis.

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org

Harry Travis wrote:

>>> Have there been thin seals, rubber donuts, or gaskets that would
>>> rest between the bearing cages and cups to reduce the amount of
>>> water that can contaminate bottom bracket bearings?

>> yes, there are several pre-cartridge designs that have them.

>>> I wondered whether in wet climates, say England, such existed,
>>> before sealed bottom brackets appeared.

>> trouble is, for those kind of BB's, the moisture usually gets into
>> the bearing from within, not without. i.e. down the seat tube,
>> etc. the best solution is to drill the BB to allow water an exit
>> rather than keep it in where it causes harm. many higher quality
>> frames come with pre-drilled BB's for exactly this purpose.
>> particularly when used in conjunction with marine grease, such a
>> simple device is remarkably effective.

> I think I've read the complete Jobst Brandt. Doesn't help me much
> in this inquiry.

I don't recall writing about cartridge bearings but I mentioned what
occurs when water gets into ball bearings, especially in wheels. It
produces intermittent sharp cracking sound that don't sound like ball
bearings. That seems to be the fine oxide particles (rust) being
crushed. When this occurs, the bearing balls and cup and cone should
be wiped clean and lubricated. Bering balls will have a reddish gold
color but are not dimensionally damaged so they should be reused.

> This is really simple. I look at the gap between a Campy cup and
> the spindle, and say: I'd like to reduce by 95% the amount of water
> that creeps in when riding in the rain, and I'm willing to put out
> 5-50 times the number watts I'd save from switching from metal to
> ceramic balls to do it. <smile> Even 5 watts. I don't expect the
> BB grease to NOT get contaminated and soapy from water. I'd just
> like to extend the service interval from 1000 miles and 2 months to
> 5000 miles and 1 year. Is there a Teflon-coated neoprene-like
> gasket that will do that?

It takes only a slight amount of water and that amount readily
emulsifies oil of the grease and causes water-in-bearing clicking
syndrome. No water should be getting into the lubricant at all and if
it is suspected to have gotten in there, the bearing should be cleaned
and re-lubricated.

> Let me put it another way: Lizard Skins sells a big condom for your
> headset bearings. Does it increase friction? No doubt. Leak-proof.
> Probably not. Reduce headset maintenance? Likely.

> Or, Andrew: If you put super-heavy grease between the ball bearing
> carrier and the cup: Does/would that reduce water contamination?

That doesn't work. As far as a rubber boot goes, it must be a tight
fit on the upper half and have clearance like a skirt to not cause
drag, but even more important is that it not give a sliding capillary
path for water to climb up into the bearing.

Jobst Brandt