Training Qs: intervals, blowing up, fat...

Ryan Cousineau

I have two goals right now:

-Lose a huge amount of weight
-up the wattage

I'm mostly interested in sprint bursts of power, since every race I ever
won, I won from a sprint, and this Fall I'll probably start riding track.

Conversely, I really, really like CX, so I wouldn't want to throw my
30-minute power under a bus, and while I don't care either way about
TTs, I always seem to enjoy them while I'm actually doing them (I
realize that may mean I'm doing it wrong).

So, this year's strategy could be summarized as:

-goal-wise, I'm throwing long races and hill climbs under a bus. If they
help my training, fine, but it's going to be a long time before my body
composition makes me look like a climber*.

-I wouldn't mind doing well in crits, but as far as I'm concerned, the
whole purpose of road season this year is to get me back into race
shape. If I come good for some of the August crits, fine. If not, CX
season is soon enough.

Given that like all fatty masters, I have limited time (that beer won't
drink itself, you know), my current plan is to strive for 2-3 serious
training sessions per week, plus as much high-HR work as I can manage on
my commute (which, bizarrely, consists of four 15-minute rides a day: I
go home for lunch).

Here's a typical training, er, plan:

-multi-modal commute halfway across town, 25ish km in multiple sections.
Because of the hills and the timing, I have to ride faster than slow to
get to the crit on time.
-yes, crit: ride Cat 4 crit until I explode spectacularly, and then keep
riding until I get lapped or show signs of endangering the sprint.
-ride home in a very screwed-up state, probably have to stop for a
drink. This ride reverses the commute, but the hills are more favorable.

The goal is to do a fairly long ride that will burn fat, but to throw
enough high-HR riding in that I build power. Is it dumb to combine these
activities? Is it dumber than not doing one or the other at all?

I'm certainly in such a state, physically, right now that any serious
riding is likely to help, but I don't want to be doing some sort of
ridiculous physiological suicide that will be totally counterproductive
(as, for example, I suspect long rides at 25 km/h would be. Junk miles
ho!)

I will also try to pack in a few dedicated sessions of riding hard,
60-90s intervals uphill (3 sets of 3 to start), since that has
historically made me strong fast.

If the biggest result from my training is that I lose 25 pounds and
maintain some semblance of current power, I will be highly competitive
in the local crits, and should shoot up the CX results as if I was
experimenting with The Shit That Will Kill Them.

Finally, are my training goals ridiculous? Am I sabotaging the CX season
with my devotion to intervals, when I should just work on hour-power or
something? Is training for both CX and sprinting purely hopeless? I
don't see a lot of peloton-ing happening at the front end of local "B"
CX races, but then I don't see a lot of the front of those races, period.

Thanks for any suggestions, even the funny ones.

*will never happen.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

A R:nen

Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@gmail.com> writes:

> Finally, are my training goals ridiculous? Am I sabotaging the CX season
> with my devotion to intervals, when I should just work on hour-power or
> something? Is training for both CX and sprinting purely hopeless? I
> don't see a lot of peloton-ing happening at the front end of local "B"
> CX races, but then I don't see a lot of the front of those races, period.

Doesn't sprint training actually help CX? I mean, you do have to get
back up to speed after each dismount/slow section and each one of
those accelerations is essentially like a small sprint (though you
don't want to go all out any further than what you can manage to
recover from in the time before the next dismount).

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com

On May 13, 5:07*am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have two goals right now:
>
> -Lose a huge amount of weight
> -up the wattage
>
> I'm mostly interested in sprint bursts of power, since every race I ever
> won, I won from a sprint, and this Fall I'll probably start riding track.
>
> Conversely, I really, really like CX, so I wouldn't want to throw my
> 30-minute power under a bus, and while I don't care either way about
> TTs, I always seem to enjoy them while I'm actually doing them (I
> realize that may mean I'm doing it wrong).
>
> So, this year's strategy could be summarized as:
>
> -goal-wise, I'm throwing long races and hill climbs under a bus. If they
> help my training, fine, but it's going to be a long time before my body
> composition makes me look like a climber*.
>
> -I wouldn't mind doing well in crits, but as far as I'm concerned, the
> whole purpose of road season this year is to get me back into race
> shape. If I come good for some of the August crits, fine. If not, CX
> season is soon enough.
>
> Given that like all fatty masters, I have limited time (that beer won't
> drink itself, you know), my current plan is to strive for 2-3 serious
> training sessions per week, plus as much high-HR work as I can manage on
> my commute (which, bizarrely, consists of four 15-minute rides a day: I
> go home for lunch).
>
> Here's a typical training, er, plan:
>
> -multi-modal commute halfway across town, 25ish km in multiple sections.
> Because of the hills and the timing, I have to ride faster than slow to
> get to the crit on time.
> -yes, crit: ride Cat 4 crit until I explode spectacularly, and then keep
> riding until I get lapped or show signs of endangering the sprint.
> -ride home in a very screwed-up state, probably have to stop for a
> drink. This ride reverses the commute, but the hills are more favorable.
>
> The goal is to do a fairly long ride that will burn fat, but to throw
> enough high-HR riding in that I build power. Is it dumb to combine these
> activities? Is it dumber than not doing one or the other at all?
>
> I'm certainly in such a state, physically, right now that any serious
> riding is likely to help, but I don't want to be doing some sort of
> ridiculous physiological suicide that will be totally counterproductive
> (as, for example, I suspect long rides at 25 km/h would be. Junk miles
> ho!)
>
> I will also try to pack in a few dedicated sessions of riding hard,
> 60-90s intervals uphill (3 sets of 3 to start), since that has
> historically made me strong fast.
>
> If the biggest result from my training is that I lose 25 pounds and
> maintain some semblance of current power, I will be highly competitive
> in the local crits, and should shoot up the CX results as if I was
> experimenting with The Shit That Will Kill Them.
>
> Finally, are my training goals ridiculous? Am I sabotaging the CX season
> with my devotion to intervals, when I should just work on hour-power or
> something? Is training for both CX and sprinting purely hopeless? I
> don't see a lot of peloton-ing happening at the front end of local "B"
> CX races, but then I don't see a lot of the front of those races, period.
>
> Thanks for any suggestions, even the funny ones.
>
> *will never happen.
>

I don't see how losing 25lbs should have to have a negative effect on
power. We are talking fat, not muscle.

As for sprint vs CX, my take is that with -25lbs it's not going to
matter. And the general fitness gains from the more rigourous plan
will just make you better all around. I think one has to be SUPER
strong before specialization comes at the cost of sacrificing some
strengths to the favor of others.

In other words, the strong guys who are faster than you can probably
ride away from you in a TT, up a hill, and in a sprint, and CX too
(unless they suck at bike handling). Specialization doesn't really
matter at this level, fitness does. Same goes for peaking, and all
that other rubbish.

The main thing IMO is in general more riding, with more intensity will
make you stronger and thus faster. Losing weight will also make you
faster (duh). There are myriad ways to optimize how you do the work
you are going to do in training, and how to schedule recovery or
whatever you want to call it, but the short version is "ride lots."

Joseph

Bill C

On May 13, 6:03*am, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
<joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On May 13, 5:07*am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I have two goals right now:
>
> > -Lose a huge amount of weight
> > -up the wattage
>
> > I'm mostly interested in sprint bursts of power, since every race I ever
> > won, I won from a sprint, and this Fall I'll probably start riding track..
>
> > Conversely, I really, really like CX, so I wouldn't want to throw my
> > 30-minute power under a bus, and while I don't care either way about
> > TTs, I always seem to enjoy them while I'm actually doing them (I
> > realize that may mean I'm doing it wrong).
>
> > So, this year's strategy could be summarized as:
>
> > -goal-wise, I'm throwing long races and hill climbs under a bus. If they
> > help my training, fine, but it's going to be a long time before my body
> > composition makes me look like a climber*.
>
> > -I wouldn't mind doing well in crits, but as far as I'm concerned, the
> > whole purpose of road season this year is to get me back into race
> > shape. If I come good for some of the August crits, fine. If not, CX
> > season is soon enough.
>
> > Given that like all fatty masters, I have limited time (that beer won't
> > drink itself, you know), my current plan is to strive for 2-3 serious
> > training sessions per week, plus as much high-HR work as I can manage on
> > my commute (which, bizarrely, consists of four 15-minute rides a day: I
> > go home for lunch).
>
> > Here's a typical training, er, plan:
>
> > -multi-modal commute halfway across town, 25ish km in multiple sections.
> > Because of the hills and the timing, I have to ride faster than slow to
> > get to the crit on time.
> > -yes, crit: ride Cat 4 crit until I explode spectacularly, and then keep
> > riding until I get lapped or show signs of endangering the sprint.
> > -ride home in a very screwed-up state, probably have to stop for a
> > drink. This ride reverses the commute, but the hills are more favorable.
>
> > The goal is to do a fairly long ride that will burn fat, but to throw
> > enough high-HR riding in that I build power. Is it dumb to combine these
> > activities? Is it dumber than not doing one or the other at all?
>
> > I'm certainly in such a state, physically, right now that any serious
> > riding is likely to help, but I don't want to be doing some sort of
> > ridiculous physiological suicide that will be totally counterproductive
> > (as, for example, I suspect long rides at 25 km/h would be. Junk miles
> > ho!)
>
> > I will also try to pack in a few dedicated sessions of riding hard,
> > 60-90s intervals uphill (3 sets of 3 to start), since that has
> > historically made me strong fast.
>
> > If the biggest result from my training is that I lose 25 pounds and
> > maintain some semblance of current power, I will be highly competitive
> > in the local crits, and should shoot up the CX results as if I was
> > experimenting with The Shit That Will Kill Them.
>
> > Finally, are my training goals ridiculous? Am I sabotaging the CX season
> > with my devotion to intervals, when I should just work on hour-power or
> > something? Is training for both CX and sprinting purely hopeless? I
> > don't see a lot of peloton-ing happening at the front end of local "B"
> > CX races, but then I don't see a lot of the front of those races, period..
>
> > Thanks for any suggestions, even the funny ones.
>
> > *will never happen.
>
> I don't see how losing 25lbs should have to have a negative effect on
> power. We are talking fat, not muscle.
>
> As for sprint vs CX, my take is that with -25lbs it's not going to
> matter. And the general fitness gains from the more rigourous plan
> will just make you better all around. I think one has to be SUPER
> strong before specialization comes at the cost of sacrificing some
> strengths to the favor of others.
>
> In other words, the strong guys who are faster than you can probably
> ride away from you in a TT, up a hill, and in a sprint, and CX too
> (unless they suck at bike handling). Specialization doesn't really
> matter at this level, fitness does. Same goes for peaking, and all
> that other rubbish.
>
> The main thing IMO is in general more riding, with more intensity will
> make you stronger and thus faster. Losing weight will also make you
> faster (duh). There are myriad ways to optimize how you do the work
> you are going to do in training, and how to schedule recovery or
> whatever you want to call it, but the short version is "ride lots."
>
> Joseph- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Unless you're incredibly careful with the diet, and training you are
going to lose some muscle, unfortunately. The "cutting up" phase for a
bodybuilder heading into a competition is really a mixed bag, since
you really start seeing all the muscles pop out, but you are also
losing some size you killed yourself to add, but since Ryan isn't
looking to go to that extreme it's pretty doable with losing minimal
amounts of muscle, or if he wants to lose slower you can hold, or gain
muscle, but it's tricky to only lose fat. I'd suggest looking for "pre-
contest" diet and training routines which adapt really well to
cycling. I used cycling as the primary, non-impact, tool for keeping
the metabolism up, and fat burning.
Something like a 1-2 hour ride in the AM before breakfast at about
75%, breakfast, snack, circuit type workout w/no rest between sets and
exercises, lighter weights, more reps, keep moving!!, lunch, afternoon
ride, about same as the morning ride, dinner, late mostly protein
snack about an hour before bed, should be well under 20grams protein,
and minimal carbs.
Basically the day in this cycle goes, high carb/low protein in the
AM to the opposite before bed.
the multiple small meals and snacks, along with several aerobic
activity sessions are the key to keeping the metabolism elevated.
Throwing in some sprints, and occasional LT/anaerobic work shouldn't
hurt at all and would probably help since the body is SO good at
adaptation to a routine. You've got to keep changing things up for
consistant gains. Cycle the amount of calories too around the target
weight/projected rate of loss, calculated figure. Give yourself a day
or two a week/10 days that's actually a little higher than the
baseline to help keep the metabolism up too. Anecdote says that L-
Carnitine is the standard supplement suggested, and commonly used to
aid in this. My results weren't conclusive, but it wasn't spendy, and
didn't hurt.
You might want to talk with a nutritionist/trainer who's current too.
If you do make sure they are certified. Usually an eval, and basic
plan isn't too expensive, and the objective set of eyes can really
make a difference. Think of how many times we've all looked at
something, over and over, and yet never saw it/couldn't find it, until
"DOH!" someone else pointed it out.
Bill C

Nobody

On Tue, 13 May 2008 03:03:37 -0700 (PDT),
"joseph.santaniello@gmail.com" <joseph.santaniello@gmail.com> wrote:

>I don't see how losing 25lbs should have to have a negative effect on
>power. We are talking fat, not muscle.

Gaining even a little weight can cause a significant speed drop.
Losing weight may not cause noticeable improvement in speed in the
casual rider who is not genetically gifted or using enhancing
substances.

Variety of factors apply. Some direct, some indirect, others seem
opposite of expectations, some factors confound attempts to track
improvements. (many variables, variable influence of those factors,
individual variation).

Best suggestion? Try to eliminate variables when testing, be sure and
track things (spreadsheets?). Don't lose motivation, keep trying.
Beware regaining weight - maintenance is more challenging than losing.

2 cents.

Nobody

On Tue, 13 May 2008 06:00:55 -0700 (PDT), Bill C
<tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote:

>I used cycling as the primary, non-impact, tool for keeping
>the metabolism up, and fat burning.

How much did you lose, over what period of time?

What was your speed pre and post loss?

Just curious.

Figures I've seen suggest only 85% of loss is pure fat, unless
genetically superior, or on PEDs.

Bill C

On May 13, 10:16*am, Nobody<nob...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 13 May 2008 06:00:55 -0700 (PDT), Bill C
>
> <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >I used cycling as the primary, non-impact, tool for keeping
> >the metabolism up, and fat burning.
>
> How much did you lose, over what period of time?
>
> What was your speed pre and post loss?
>
> Just curious.
>
> Figures I've seen suggest only 85% of loss is pure fat, unless
> genetically superior, or on PEDs.

I wasn't racing bicycles then much, I was doing some duathlons, but
mostly power lifting/BB stuff. My weight bounced from 215/225
depending on how much I was focused on power during that large cycle.
heavier when going into a lifting competition of something like that,
down to 185 at around 5% bodyfat for BB which was about my best, and I
stayed in those ranges for about 10 years since I am not genetically
gifted. Coming down from 225 was probably 4 months, 215 about 3 when
trying to retain muscle. There was definitley a strength loss when
coming down, but power to weight wasn't a factor there. Neither was
extended aerobic power. I'd have to dig through my old training logs
for times on a, roughly, 45 minute TT I used to do regularly about
once every other week, which would be the only ride that day, just to
shake up the training and try and correlate it with the weight and
bodyfat levels which I have somewhere. Memory says I was slightly
faster going down to about 10lbs from the goal, then in that last
10lbs, which I always had a miserable time with, getting slower, and
losing more in the gym too.
Unfortunately the last of this is close to 10 years ago now when the
injuries started catching up with me so the details aren't real sharp
without digging logs out.
I have managed to put on muscle while maintaining the bodyfat level
but it's a lot slower than taking some fat with the muscle gain.
keeping the muscle while losing the fat is, easily, the hardest thing
to do in BB. That's why there are so many drugs used out there,
especially, once your close, diuretics that help get rid of the excess
water "puffiness" from the steroids for razor sharp "cuts". At the
"pro" level, around show times, peoples electrolyte levels and body
chemistry is frequently, totally screwed up resulting in massive
cramping onstage, or in back, one top five type had to literally be
carried off stage and taken to the hospital, and trips to the
hospital, or EMT and then hospital from this crap.
I think most competitive cyclists, that have been racing for a few
years, are close enough, and knowledgeable enough that big gains are
going to be really hard to come by. As others have said a few percent
that is sustainable is a big gain.
From talking to good cycling trainers I don't think the small bf/
weight changes are going to be a big thing if Ryan is looking for more
power/sprinting. More a different structure to the training.
Bill C

Amit Ghosh

On May 12, 11:07 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have two goals right now:
>
> -Lose a huge amount of weight
> -up the wattage

dumbass,

liposuction and blood transfusion.

William Asher

Ryan Cousineau wrote:

> I have two goals right now:
>
> -Lose a huge amount of weight
> -up the wattage
<snip>
> Thanks for any suggestions, even the funny ones.

Don't focus on pedaling at a higher cadence.

--
Bill Asher

Steve Freides

"Ryan Cousineau" <rcousine@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:rcousine-BCAB86.20071312052008@[74.223.185.199.nw.nuvox.net]...
>I have two goals right now:
>
> -Lose a huge amount of weight
> -up the wattage
>
> I'm mostly interested in sprint bursts of power, since every race I
> ever
> won, I won from a sprint, and this Fall I'll probably start riding
> track.
>
> Conversely, I really, really like CX, so I wouldn't want to throw my
> 30-minute power under a bus, and while I don't care either way about
> TTs, I always seem to enjoy them while I'm actually doing them (I
> realize that may mean I'm doing it wrong).
>
> So, this year's strategy could be summarized as:
>
> -goal-wise, I'm throwing long races and hill climbs under a bus. If
> they
> help my training, fine, but it's going to be a long time before my
> body
> composition makes me look like a climber*.
>
> -I wouldn't mind doing well in crits, but as far as I'm concerned, the
> whole purpose of road season this year is to get me back into race
> shape. If I come good for some of the August crits, fine. If not, CX
> season is soon enough.
>
> Given that like all fatty masters, I have limited time (that beer
> won't
> drink itself, you know), my current plan is to strive for 2-3 serious
> training sessions per week, plus as much high-HR work as I can manage
> on
> my commute (which, bizarrely, consists of four 15-minute rides a day:
> I
> go home for lunch).
>
> Here's a typical training, er, plan:
>
> -multi-modal commute halfway across town, 25ish km in multiple
> sections.
> Because of the hills and the timing, I have to ride faster than slow
> to
> get to the crit on time.
> -yes, crit: ride Cat 4 crit until I explode spectacularly, and then
> keep
> riding until I get lapped or show signs of endangering the sprint.
> -ride home in a very screwed-up state, probably have to stop for a
> drink. This ride reverses the commute, but the hills are more
> favorable.
>
> The goal is to do a fairly long ride that will burn fat, but to throw
> enough high-HR riding in that I build power. Is it dumb to combine
> these
> activities? Is it dumber than not doing one or the other at all?
>
> I'm certainly in such a state, physically, right now that any serious
> riding is likely to help, but I don't want to be doing some sort of
> ridiculous physiological suicide that will be totally
> counterproductive
> (as, for example, I suspect long rides at 25 km/h would be. Junk miles
> ho!)
>
> I will also try to pack in a few dedicated sessions of riding hard,
> 60-90s intervals uphill (3 sets of 3 to start), since that has
> historically made me strong fast.
>
> If the biggest result from my training is that I lose 25 pounds and
> maintain some semblance of current power, I will be highly competitive
> in the local crits, and should shoot up the CX results as if I was
> experimenting with The Shit That Will Kill Them.
>
> Finally, are my training goals ridiculous? Am I sabotaging the CX
> season
> with my devotion to intervals, when I should just work on hour-power
> or
> something? Is training for both CX and sprinting purely hopeless? I
> don't see a lot of peloton-ing happening at the front end of local "B"
> CX races, but then I don't see a lot of the front of those races,
> period.
>
> Thanks for any suggestions, even the funny ones.
>
> *will never happen.

Losing weight is, for most people, 90% about diet. It sounds like
you're getting plenty of exercise already. Most people find some sort
of resistance training (read: lifting weights) helps. The conventional
wisdom about dieting is, IMHO, severely lacking these days. Google
"Warrior Diet" and "Intermittent Fasting" to see what I have found works
for me, my wife, and lots of other folks, too. I have always been
basically thin and I eat this way because I prefer it, not because I
have to for reasons of body composition.

In short, eat less, and find heavy objects and move them - in addition
to continuing to ride your bike.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Donald Munro

Steve Freides wrote:
> In short, eat less, and find heavy objects and move them - in addition to
> continuing to ride your bike.

And drink less beer.

Nobody

On Tue, 13 May 2008 08:01:28 -0700 (PDT), Bill C
<tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote:

>Memory says I was slightly faster going down to about
>10lbs from the goal,

Motivation is typically very high at this point. It can overwhelm
other factors. (Pedaling in anger/joy?)

>that last 10lbs, which I always had a miserable time with, getting slower,

Percent muscle loss increases as you get closer to goal. Less
available fat to lose (some fat=stubborn).

Guessing heavier than about 180lbs too many factors work against
cycling speed and climbing in average person. Some gifted guys are
built to ride fast and weigh more, but are rare, istm.

Thanks for the info!

Bret

On May 13, 10:31*am, William Asher <gcn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> > I have two goals right now:
>
> > -Lose a huge amount of weight
> > -up the wattage
> <snip>
> > Thanks for any suggestions, even the funny ones.
>
> Don't focus on pedaling at a higher cadence. *
>
> --
> Bill Asher

Chung will post a chart demonstrating the ineffectiveness of the red
herring diet.

Bret

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com

On May 13, 3:56*pm, Nobody<nob...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 13 May 2008 03:03:37 -0700 (PDT),
>
> "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com" <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >I don't see how losing 25lbs should have to have a negative effect on
> >power. We are talking fat, not muscle.
>
> Gaining even a little weight can cause a significant speed drop.
> Losing weight may not cause noticeable improvement in speed in the
> casual rider who is not genetically gifted or using enhancing
> substances.
>
> Variety of factors apply. Some direct, some indirect, others seem
> opposite of expectations, some factors confound attempts to track
> improvements. (many variables, variable influence of those factors,
> individual variation).
>
> Best suggestion? Try to eliminate variables when testing, be sure and
> track things (spreadsheets?). Don't lose motivation, keep trying.
> Beware regaining weight - maintenance is more challenging than losing.
>
> 2 cents.

25lbs of flab gone makes a HUGE difference.

Someone (like a bodybuilder) who has excess muscle mass may find it
hard to maintain that mass while losing small amounts of fat, but a
fatso with a 25lbs spare tire isn't going to have a hard time of it.
I'm a fan of (relatively) high protein diets.

I lost 50-60lbs riding, and I am WAY stronger than I was then. Not to
mention way faster.

Joseph