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15-04.-2008, 05:02 PM
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#1 |
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horse vs bicycle vs car
Suppose the world runs out of oil overnight (instead of 20 yrs) and
you wake to a $30.00 a gallon. Would riding horses become economically relevant again (horses convert "biofuel" directly into mechanical energy)? 1 HP is 700W. I wonder for how long a horse can sustain the 700W. A bicyclist can sustain 200W, but not much additional load. |
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15-04.-2008, 07:55 PM
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Re: horse vs bicycle vs car
In article <1f96cfd8-1918-4922-8247-93161a2bc94b@m1g2000pre.googlegroups.com>,
"runcyclexcski@yahoo.com" <runcyclexcski@yahoo.com> writes: > Suppose the world runs out of oil overnight (instead of 20 yrs) and > you wake to a $30.00 a gallon. Would riding horses become economically > relevant again (horses convert "biofuel" directly into mechanical > energy)? 1 HP is 700W. I wonder for how long a horse can sustain the > 700W. A bicyclist can sustain 200W, but not much additional load. You'd be surprised by how much cargo can be hauled by bicycle. cheers, Tom -- Nothing is safe from me. I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca |
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15-04.-2008, 08:59 PM
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#3 |
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Re: horse vs bicycle vs car
Tom Keats wrote:
> In article <1f96cfd8-1918-4922-8247-93161a2bc94b@m1g2000pre.googlegroups.com>, > "runcyclexcski@yahoo.com" <runcyclexcski@yahoo.com> writes: >> Suppose the world runs out of oil overnight (instead of 20 yrs) and >> you wake to a $30.00 a gallon. Would riding horses become economically >> relevant again (horses convert "biofuel" directly into mechanical >> energy)? 1 HP is 700W. I wonder for how long a horse can sustain the >> 700W. A bicyclist can sustain 200W, but not much additional load. > > You'd be surprised by how much cargo can be > hauled by bicycle. > How many cyclists can be fed by one horse?  -- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia The weather is here, wish you were beautiful |
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15-04.-2008, 10:20 PM
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#4 |
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Re: horse vs bicycle vs car
On Apr 15, 4:02*am, "runcyclexc...@yahoo.com"
<runcyclexc...@yahoo.com> wrote: > Suppose the world runs out of oil overnight (instead of 20 yrs) and > you wake to a $30.00 a gallon. Would riding horses become economically > relevant again (horses convert "biofuel" directly into mechanical > energy)? 1 HP is 700W. I wonder for how long a horse can sustain the > 700W. A bicyclist can sustain 200W, but not much additional load. Not a huge horse fan. The elephant thing didn't work out well for Bart. I'm thinking a llama. http://tinyurl.com/4k22pb. A grey and white one. Like this one: http://tinyurl.com/4jkgar. Or maybe a brown fluffy one? http://tinyurl.com/3z5u53. This one, cute as he may be, is angry. Llama with ears back = angry llame, beware bruising spit and step away! http://tinyurl.com/28gjsk If the llama is a bit too big, there's always the Alpaca. http://tinyurl.com/5yj8yu |
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15-04.-2008, 11:06 PM
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Re: horse vs bicycle vs car
runcyclexcski@yahoo.com <runcyclexcski@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Suppose the world runs out of oil overnight (instead of 20 yrs) and > you wake to a $30.00 a gallon. Would riding horses become economically > relevant again (horses convert "biofuel" directly into mechanical > energy)? 1 HP is 700W. I wonder for how long a horse can sustain the > 700W. A bicyclist can sustain 200W, but not much additional load. I'm not sure exactly how many acres of ground it takes to supply the food needs of one horse, but I'll bet it's three or four at least. It we suddenly had, say, 100,000,000 horses, we'd need a heckuva lot of farm land to feed them all. Next thing we'd need is a way to collect and dispose of all the horses' "exhaust." We might be able to derive some methane from it, but we'd have to get it off the streets first. Anybody want the job? Finally, we'd have to find a way to dispose of all those horses when they died. A major change in our national dietary aversions, I suppose. Personally, I suspect we'd have plenty of gas if we'd just quit wasting it. Bill __o |Weaning our nation from fossil fuels should be understood as _`\(,_ |the most patriotic policy to which we can commit ourselves. (_)/ (_) | -Robert Redford |
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16-04.-2008, 02:23 AM
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Re: horse vs bicycle vs car
I am not a big fan of horses, but I am just curious what would happen
in the worst case scenario - i.e. if the Olduvai theory by Duncan works to a certain extent. After all, historically, we are only ~100 years away from the times when the horse was the main way of transportation (plus railroads, which we have happily got rid of), and oil was arguably what allowed us to switch. > I'm not sure exactly how many acres of ground it takes to supply the > food needs of one horse, but I'll bet it's three or four at least. It we > suddenly had, say, 100,000,000 horses, we'd need a heckuva lot of farm > land to feed them all. Is it that much? I saw a number that UK had ~25 mln horses before the industrial revolution > Next thing we'd need is a way to collect and dispose of all the horses' > "exhaust." We might be able to derive some methane from it, but we'd have > to get it off the streets first. Anybody want the job? I did not say it would be easy  > Finally, we'd have to find a way to dispose of all those horses when > they died. A major change in our national dietary aversions, I suppose. > Personally, I suspect we'd have plenty of gas if we'd just quit wasting > it. I hear you. |
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16-04.-2008, 06:11 AM
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Re: horse vs bicycle vs car
> > You'd be surprised by how much cargo can be > > hauled by bicycle. Yes, by a fit cyclist. if you just took your butt out of your SUV seat, much less. |
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16-04.-2008, 06:38 AM
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#8 |
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Re: horse vs bicycle vs car
runcyclexcski@yahoo.com <runcyclexcski@yahoo.com> wrote:
> years away from the times when the horse was the main way of > transportation (plus railroads, which we have happily got rid of), and > oil was arguably what allowed us to switch. Rail is the second most fuel-efficient form of transportation. If we want to conserve petroleum, we should fly less, drive less, truck less, and use trains more. The only way of getting around that's more fuel-efficient is the noble bicycle. Bill __o | The bicycle is the noblest invention of mankind. _`\(,_ | -- William Saroyan (_)/ (_) | |
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16-04.-2008, 08:29 AM
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#9 |
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Re: horse vs bicycle vs car
On Apr 15, 4:38 pm, D_Frumiou...@ndersnat.ch wrote:
> runcyclexc...@yahoo.com <runcyclexc...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > years away from the times when the horse was the main way of > > transportation (plus railroads, which we have happily got rid of), and > > oil was arguably what allowed us to switch. > > Rail is the second most fuel-efficient form of transportation. If we > want to conserve petroleum, we should fly less, drive less, truck less, > and use trains more. The only way of getting around that's more > fuel-efficient is the noble bicycle. > > Bill > > __o | The bicycle is the noblest invention of mankind. > _`\(,_ | -- William Saroyan > (_)/ (_) | The comparable unit of measurements was a Cargo pound mile per gallon of Bio Diesel (vegetable oil). 1 Cargo pound mile is hauling 1 pound of cargo 1 mile. Vegetable oil can be used in Diesel engines, and contains about 35,000 dietary calories per gallon. Rough approximations A hummer could haul 1000 pounds of cargo 10 miles per gallon = 10,000 cargo pound miles per gallon. A rabbit could haul 500 pounds of cargo 35 miles per gallon = 17,500 cargo pound miles per gallon. A bicyclist can haul 100 pounds of cargo 500 miles per gallon = 100,000 cargo pound miles per gallon. (guess) A bicyclist can haul himself and 50 pounds of cargo 1000 miles per gallon = 50,000 cargo pound miles per gallon. (10 days 100 miles a day on tour, 3500 calories a day) A semi can haul 50,000 pounds of cargo 9 miles per gallon = 450,000 cargo pound miles per gallon. A one engine train can haul 25 cars of 200,000 pounds of cargo 0.5 miles per gallon = 2,500,000 cargo pound miles per gallon. |
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16-04.-2008, 08:52 AM
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Re: horse vs bicycle vs car
On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 01:02:28 -0700, runcyclexcski@yahoo.com wrote:
> Suppose the world runs out of oil overnight (instead of 20 yrs) and you > wake to a $30.00 a gallon. Would riding horses become economically > relevant again (horses convert "biofuel" directly into mechanical energy)? > 1 HP is 700W. I wonder for how long a horse can sustain the 700W. A > bicyclist can sustain 200W, but not much additional load. I doubt horses would become important again. They're too labor intensive, space intensive, hungry, and dirty. Instead we'd probably have more electric vehicles. Matt O. |
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16-04.-2008, 01:17 PM
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Re: horse vs bicycle vs car
> I doubt horses would become important again. They're too labor > intensive, space intensive, hungry, and dirty. Instead we'd probably have > more electric vehicles. > .... assuming that existing efficient (30%) solar panels become ~100 times cheaper to make in any foreseeable time. |
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16-04.-2008, 01:19 PM
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#12 |
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Re: horse vs bicycle vs car
> A one engine train can haul 25 cars of 200,000 pounds of cargo 0.5 > miles per gallon = 2,500,000 cargo pound miles per gallon. I am with you on the trains. Just need to rebuilt all the railroads that car manufacturers have cannibalized. |
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16-04.-2008, 01:27 PM
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#13 |
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Re: horse vs bicycle vs car
On Apr 16, 2:17 pm, "runcyclexc...@yahoo.com"
<runcyclexc...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > I doubt horses would become important again. They're too labor > > intensive, space intensive, hungry, and dirty. Instead we'd probably have > > more electric vehicles. > > ... assuming that existing efficient (30%) solar panels become ~100 > times cheaper to make in any foreseeable time. It could happen, they may not end up much cheaper (at least at first) but they're so much better than current PV panels it might not matter: http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/s1865651.htm http://www.originenergy.com.au/1233/SLIVER-technology |
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16-04.-2008, 04:59 PM
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#14 |
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Re: horse vs bicycle vs car
In article <fu25af$rtg$1@registered.motzarella.org>,
Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> writes: > Tom Keats wrote: >> In article <1f96cfd8-1918-4922-8247-93161a2bc94b@m1g2000pre.googlegroups.com>, >> "runcyclexcski@yahoo.com" <runcyclexcski@yahoo.com> writes: >>> Suppose the world runs out of oil overnight (instead of 20 yrs) and >>> you wake to a $30.00 a gallon. Would riding horses become economically >>> relevant again (horses convert "biofuel" directly into mechanical >>> energy)? 1 HP is 700W. I wonder for how long a horse can sustain the >>> 700W. A bicyclist can sustain 200W, but not much additional load. >> >> You'd be surprised by how much cargo can be >> hauled by bicycle. >> > How many cyclists can be fed by one horse? Perhaps not as many as can be fed by one ox, which in some respects can also be a superior draught animal. I figure the meat would need a ~lot~ of marinating/tenderizing, though. Especially the load-bearing tissues. cheers, Tom -- Nothing is safe from me. I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca |
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17-04.-2008, 12:14 AM
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#15 |
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Re: horse vs bicycle vs car
Mike A Schwab <mike.a.schwab@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 15, 4:38 pm, D_Frumiou...@ndersnat.ch wrote: > > runcyclexc...@yahoo.com <runcyclexc...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > years away from the times when the horse was the main way of > > > transportation (plus railroads, which we have happily got rid of), and > > > oil was arguably what allowed us to switch. > > > > Rail is the second most fuel-efficient form of transportation. If we > > want to conserve petroleum, we should fly less, drive less, truck less, > > and use trains more. The only way of getting around that's more > > fuel-efficient is the noble bicycle. > > > > Bill > > > > __o | The bicycle is the noblest invention of mankind. > > _`\(,_ | -- William Saroyan > > (_)/ (_) | > The comparable unit of measurements was a Cargo pound mile per gallon > of Bio Diesel (vegetable oil). > 1 Cargo pound mile is hauling 1 pound of cargo 1 mile. > Vegetable oil can be used in Diesel engines, and contains about 35,000 > dietary calories per gallon. > Rough approximations > A hummer could haul 1000 pounds of cargo 10 miles per gallon = 10,000 > cargo pound miles per gallon. > A rabbit could haul 500 pounds of cargo 35 miles per gallon = 17,500 > cargo pound miles per gallon. > A bicyclist can haul 100 pounds of cargo 500 miles per gallon = > 100,000 cargo pound miles per gallon. (guess) > A bicyclist can haul himself and 50 pounds of cargo 1000 miles per > gallon = 50,000 cargo pound miles per gallon. (10 days 100 miles a day > on tour, 3500 calories a day) > A semi can haul 50,000 pounds of cargo 9 miles per gallon = 450,000 > cargo pound miles per gallon. > A one engine train can haul 25 cars of 200,000 pounds of cargo 0.5 > miles per gallon = 2,500,000 cargo pound miles per gallon. Interesting numbers, even if they're just wild-eyed guesses. The next consideration, though, isn't the mode of transportation, but what we haul and where we haul it. There is a brand of soup, for instance, that you can buy in stores in my area. It's made locally, and quite tasty. But before you can buy it, the store has to stock it, and they have to buy it from a distributor 750 miles away, even though it's made just 40 miles away. So the stuff travels 1500 miles to get back to nearly where it was made before you can buy it. That is actually typical. The average food item is consumed 1700 miles from where it was made. Here in Salt Lake City, for instance, some of the baked goods for sale in our stores are made in Denver, Los Angeles, and even Kansas City. Then there is Fiji Water, a bottled drinking water that is hauled all the way across the Pacific Ocean to shelves in American stores. How's that for a waste in a world where you can buy a Brita filter at any Home Depot? Got a pound mile per gallon for a freighter full of water? And of course, there's the old Census Bureau finding that half of all car trips are under five miles. There are three ways to cut fuel usage: haul less, haul more efficiently, and don't haul it so far. Bill __o | I used to think that I was cool, running around on fossil fuel _`\(,_ | Until I saw what I was doing was driving down the road to ruin. (_)/ (_) | - James Taylor |
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