On the virtue of traditional wheels when racing Paris-Roubaix

phs123@gmail.com

Nice Paris-Roubaix race this year where Tom Boonen got a deserved win.

Lots of 32 3X wheels and perhaps even 36 3X wheels at that race, only
a few of the potential contenders rode anything else;

Magnus Backstedt rode deep-section carbon wheels and broke both of
them:

"Swede Magnus Backstedt, felled by mechanical difficulties during the
race's 18th sector of pavé, the dreaded 2.4km slog through the forest
of Arenberg. Backstedt, the 2004 Roubaix winner, emerged from the
forest with two cracked deep-section carbon wheels. During the wheel
change, one of the Swede's brake pads slipped out of the caliper. He
remounted his rig and began riding, but soon required a complete bike
change and lost contact with the front of the race. He did not
finish."
http://www.velonews.com/article/746...th-into-roubaix


George Hincapie also rode deep-section carbon wheels (HED I believe)
and broke at least one of them:

"Second in 2005, but missing from the winning break this time, was an
unlucky George Hincapie (High Road). The tall American said he was
strong enough to have been with the winners until he ran into trouble.
He was riding at the front on the Bersée section of cobblestones, 53km
from the finish, and racing as well as he has ever ridden in the Hell
of the North, when his rear wheel broke. "I had great legs," Hincapie
said, "but there was nothing I could do." "
http://www.velonews.com/article/746...s-paris-roubaix

Of course this is only anecdotal "evidence" that low spoke count
carbon wheels isn't the best choice for a race like Paris-Roubaix,
still the main contender teams; CSC (Cancellera winner: 2006, O'Grady
2007) and Quick Step (Boonen 2005, 2008) seems to think so.

--
Regards

André Tuytschaver

phs123@gmail.com a écrit :
> Nice Paris-Roubaix race this year where Tom Boonen got a deserved win.
>
> Lots of 32 3X wheels and perhaps even 36 3X wheels at that race, only
> a few of the potential contenders rode anything else;
>
> Magnus Backstedt rode deep-section carbon wheels and broke both of
> them:

Backstedt won Paris-Roubaix in 2004 with aluminium "flat-section"
Neutron Campagnolo wheels...


--
Cordialement,
________________
@ndré

__o
_'\(,_
(_)/ (_)

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com

On Apr 14, 1:17*pm, phs...@gmail.com wrote:
> Nice Paris-Roubaix race this year where Tom Boonen got a deserved win.
>
> Lots of 32 3X wheels and perhaps even 36 3X wheels at that race, only
> a few of the potential contenders rode anything else;
>
> Magnus Backstedt rode deep-section carbon wheels and broke both of
> them:
>
> "Swede Magnus Backstedt, felled by mechanical difficulties during the
> race's 18th sector of pavé, the dreaded 2.4km slog through the forest
> of Arenberg. Backstedt, the 2004 Roubaix winner, emerged from the
> forest with two cracked deep-section carbon wheels. During the wheel
> change, one of the Swede's brake pads slipped out of the caliper. He
> remounted his rig and began riding, but soon required a complete bike
> change and lost contact with the front of the race. He did not
> finish."http://www.velonews.com/article/74628/slipstream-s-maaskant-4th-into-...
>
> George Hincapie also rode deep-section carbon wheels (HED I believe)
> and broke at least one of them:
>
> "Second in 2005, but missing from the winning break this time, was an
> unlucky George Hincapie (High Road). The tall American said he was
> strong enough to have been with the winners until he ran into trouble.
> He was riding at the front on the Bersée section of cobblestones, 53km
> from the finish, and racing as well as he has ever ridden in the Hell
> of the North, when his rear wheel broke. "I had great legs," Hincapie
> said, "but there was nothing I could do." "http://www.velonews.com/article/74625/boonen-wins-paris-roubaix
>
> Of course this is only anecdotal "evidence" that low spoke count
> carbon wheels isn't the best choice for a race like Paris-Roubaix,
> still the main contender teams; CSC (Cancellera winner: 2006, O'Grady
> 2007) and Quick Step (Boonen 2005, 2008) seems to think so.
>
> --
> Regards

I'll say. A normal flat race would make sense to use deep section
wheels, as they are more than strong enough for that, and provide a
useful advantage. But Paris-Roubaix isn't a normal flat race. The
cobbles is where people get dropped, and there, despite insane speed,
it isn't wind resistance on the wheels that separates the men from the
boys. Given the prospect of having a race ruined by a broken wheel, vs
a few watts saved on the non-critical smooth sections, it's obvious to
me what wheels to choose. Big tires too like Ballan.

And a 90kg+ guy like Magnus using anything but extra strong wheels
seems foolish.

Joseph

phs123@gmail.com

On 14 Apr., 13:43, André Tuytschaver <andret...@scarlet.invalid>
wrote:

> Backstedt won Paris-Roubaix in 2004 with aluminium "flat-section"
> Neutron Campagnolo wheels...

(My first answer seems to have disappeared, so I try again. Sorry if
this turns out to be a double post)

Sure, and the rookie Maaskent came in 4th on the same type of carbon
wheels that Hincapi broke.
I am not saying that carbon wheels can't be used for a race like PR,
just that they don't seem to be the best choice.
For to win a race you have to finish it.

--
Regards

unforgiven99@juno.com

On Apr 14, 8:35 am, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
<joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 14, 1:17 pm, phs...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > Nice Paris-Roubaix race this year where Tom Boonen got a deserved win.
>
> > Lots of 32 3X wheels and perhaps even 36 3X wheels at that race, only
> > a few of the potential contenders rode anything else;
>
> > Magnus Backstedt rode deep-section carbon wheels and broke both of
> > them:
>
> > "Swede Magnus Backstedt, felled by mechanical difficulties during the
> > race's 18th sector of pavé, the dreaded 2.4km slog through the forest
> > of Arenberg. Backstedt, the 2004 Roubaix winner, emerged from the
> > forest with two cracked deep-section carbon wheels. During the wheel
> > change, one of the Swede's brake pads slipped out of the caliper. He
> > remounted his rig and began riding, but soon required a complete bike
> > change and lost contact with the front of the race. He did not
> > finish."http://www.velonews.com/article/74628/slipstream-s-maaskant-4th-into-...
>
> > George Hincapie also rode deep-section carbon wheels (HED I believe)
> > and broke at least one of them:
>
> > "Second in 2005, but missing from the winning break this time, was an
> > unlucky George Hincapie (High Road). The tall American said he was
> > strong enough to have been with the winners until he ran into trouble.
> > He was riding at the front on the Bersée section of cobblestones, 53km
> > from the finish, and racing as well as he has ever ridden in the Hell
> > of the North, when his rear wheel broke. "I had great legs," Hincapie
> > said, "but there was nothing I could do." "http://www.velonews.com/article/74625/boonen-wins-paris-roubaix
>
> > Of course this is only anecdotal "evidence" that low spoke count
> > carbon wheels isn't the best choice for a race like Paris-Roubaix,
> > still the main contender teams; CSC (Cancellera winner: 2006, O'Grady
> > 2007) and Quick Step (Boonen 2005, 2008) seems to think so.
>
> > --
> > Regards
>
> I'll say. A normal flat race would make sense to use deep section
> wheels, as they are more than strong enough for that, and provide a
> useful advantage. But Paris-Roubaix isn't a normal flat race. The
> cobbles is where people get dropped, and there, despite insane speed,
> it isn't wind resistance on the wheels that separates the men from the
> boys. Given the prospect of having a race ruined by a broken wheel, vs
> a few watts saved on the non-critical smooth sections, it's obvious to
> me what wheels to choose. Big tires too like Ballan.
>
> And a 90kg+ guy like Magnus using anything but extra strong wheels
> seems foolish.
>
> Joseph

I think it's just a matter of time before one of the wheel
manufacturers comes up with a batch of Roubaix special carbon wheels.
There's no reason why those deep carbon rims can't be strong enough to
handle the cobbles if enough material is added, and in a race where a
46 ring is "small" the extra weight won't be an issue. In addition to
aerodynamics, tall rims don't get sucked into deep mud as hard as box
sections.

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com

On Apr 14, 6:27*pm, unforgive...@juno.com wrote:
> On Apr 14, 8:35 am, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>
>
>
> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Apr 14, 1:17 pm, phs...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > Nice Paris-Roubaix race this year where Tom Boonen got a deserved win.
>
> > > Lots of 32 3X wheels and perhaps even 36 3X wheels at that race, only
> > > a few of the potential contenders rode anything else;
>
> > > Magnus Backstedt rode deep-section carbon wheels and broke both of
> > > them:
>
> > > "Swede Magnus Backstedt, felled by mechanical difficulties during the
> > > race's 18th sector of pavé, the dreaded 2.4km slog through the forest
> > > of Arenberg. Backstedt, the 2004 Roubaix winner, emerged from the
> > > forest with two cracked deep-section carbon wheels. During the wheel
> > > change, one of the Swede's brake pads slipped out of the caliper. He
> > > remounted his rig and began riding, but soon required a complete bike
> > > change and lost contact with the front of the race. He did not
> > > finish."http://www.velonews.com/article/74628/slipstream-s-maaskant-4th-into-...
>
> > > George Hincapie also rode deep-section carbon wheels (HED I believe)
> > > and broke at least one of them:
>
> > > "Second in 2005, but missing from the winning break this time, was an
> > > unlucky George Hincapie (High Road). The tall American said he was
> > > strong enough to have been with the winners until he ran into trouble.
> > > He was riding at the front on the Bersée section of cobblestones, 53km
> > > from the finish, and racing as well as he has ever ridden in the Hell
> > > of the North, when his rear wheel broke. "I had great legs," Hincapie
> > > said, "but there was nothing I could do." "http://www.velonews.com/article/74625/boonen-wins-paris-roubaix
>
> > > Of course this is only anecdotal "evidence" that low spoke count
> > > carbon wheels isn't the best choice for a race like Paris-Roubaix,
> > > still the main contender teams; CSC (Cancellera winner: 2006, O'Grady
> > > 2007) and Quick Step (Boonen 2005, 2008) seems to think so.
>
> > > --
> > > Regards
>
> > I'll say. A normal flat race would make sense to use deep section
> > wheels, as they are more than strong enough for that, and provide a
> > useful advantage. But Paris-Roubaix isn't a normal flat race. The
> > cobbles is where people get dropped, and there, despite insane speed,
> > it isn't wind resistance on the wheels that separates the men from the
> > boys. Given the prospect of having a race ruined by a broken wheel, vs
> > a few watts saved on the non-critical smooth sections, it's obvious to
> > me what wheels to choose. Big tires too like Ballan.
>
> > And a 90kg+ guy like Magnus using anything but extra strong wheels
> > seems foolish.
>
> > Joseph
>
> I think it's just a matter of time before one of the wheel
> manufacturers comes up with a batch of Roubaix special carbon wheels.
> There's no reason why those deep carbon rims can't be strong enough to
> handle the cobbles if enough material is added, and in a race where a

I agree. And with all the special one-off bikes that are used, I'm
surprised the wheel manufacturers haven't already.


> 46 ring is "small" the extra weight won't be an issue. *In addition to
> aerodynamics, tall rims don't get sucked into deep mud as hard as box
> sections.

Is that why those wheels are used so often in cyclo-cross? I often
wondered why they are so prevalent.

Joseph

Ryan Cousineau

In article
<e58771fb-c5c7-4a31-b5a9-fba6484015aa@q10g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
"joseph.santaniello@gmail.com" <joseph.santaniello@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Apr 14, 6:27*pm, unforgive...@juno.com wrote:
> > On Apr 14, 8:35 am, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
> >
> >
> >
> > <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Apr 14, 1:17 pm, phs...@gmail.com wrote:

> > I think it's just a matter of time before one of the wheel
> > manufacturers comes up with a batch of Roubaix special carbon wheels.
> > There's no reason why those deep carbon rims can't be strong enough to
> > handle the cobbles if enough material is added, and in a race where a
>
> I agree. And with all the special one-off bikes that are used, I'm
> surprised the wheel manufacturers haven't already.
>
>
> > 46 ring is "small" the extra weight won't be an issue. *In addition to
> > aerodynamics, tall rims don't get sucked into deep mud as hard as box
> > sections.
>
> Is that why those wheels are used so often in cyclo-cross? I often
> wondered why they are so prevalent.

I believe that's the theory, yes. After all, the aero considerations are
low, and the weight can't be any better than that of the best
low-profile rims.

Also, and never underestimate this factor, CX bikes with Zipp 404s look
way cool.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

Tom Sherman

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> [...]
> Also, and never underestimate this factor, CX bikes with Zipp 404s look
> way cool.
>
Does that opinion have the Fabrizio Mazzoleni seal of approval?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

unforgiven99@juno.com

On Apr 14, 1:05 pm, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
<joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 14, 6:27 pm, unforgive...@juno.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Apr 14, 8:35 am, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>
> > <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Apr 14, 1:17 pm, phs...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > Nice Paris-Roubaix race this year where Tom Boonen got a deserved win.
>
> > > > Lots of 32 3X wheels and perhaps even 36 3X wheels at that race, only
> > > > a few of the potential contenders rode anything else;
>
> > > > Magnus Backstedt rode deep-section carbon wheels and broke both of
> > > > them:
>
> > > > "Swede Magnus Backstedt, felled by mechanical difficulties during the
> > > > race's 18th sector of pavé, the dreaded 2.4km slog through the forest
> > > > of Arenberg. Backstedt, the 2004 Roubaix winner, emerged from the
> > > > forest with two cracked deep-section carbon wheels. During the wheel
> > > > change, one of the Swede's brake pads slipped out of the caliper. He
> > > > remounted his rig and began riding, but soon required a complete bike
> > > > change and lost contact with the front of the race. He did not
> > > > finish."http://www.velonews.com/article/74628/slipstream-s-maaskant-4th-into-...
>
> > > > George Hincapie also rode deep-section carbon wheels (HED I believe)
> > > > and broke at least one of them:
>
> > > > "Second in 2005, but missing from the winning break this time, was an
> > > > unlucky George Hincapie (High Road). The tall American said he was
> > > > strong enough to have been with the winners until he ran into trouble.
> > > > He was riding at the front on the Bersée section of cobblestones, 53km
> > > > from the finish, and racing as well as he has ever ridden in the Hell
> > > > of the North, when his rear wheel broke. "I had great legs," Hincapie
> > > > said, "but there was nothing I could do." "http://www.velonews.com/article/74625/boonen-wins-paris-roubaix
>
> > > > Of course this is only anecdotal "evidence" that low spoke count
> > > > carbon wheels isn't the best choice for a race like Paris-Roubaix,
> > > > still the main contender teams; CSC (Cancellera winner: 2006, O'Grady
> > > > 2007) and Quick Step (Boonen 2005, 2008) seems to think so.
>
> > > > --
> > > > Regards
>
> > > I'll say. A normal flat race would make sense to use deep section
> > > wheels, as they are more than strong enough for that, and provide a
> > > useful advantage. But Paris-Roubaix isn't a normal flat race. The
> > > cobbles is where people get dropped, and there, despite insane speed,
> > > it isn't wind resistance on the wheels that separates the men from the
> > > boys. Given the prospect of having a race ruined by a broken wheel, vs
> > > a few watts saved on the non-critical smooth sections, it's obvious to
> > > me what wheels to choose. Big tires too like Ballan.
>
> > > And a 90kg+ guy like Magnus using anything but extra strong wheels
> > > seems foolish.
>
> > > Joseph
>
> > I think it's just a matter of time before one of the wheel
> > manufacturers comes up with a batch of Roubaix special carbon wheels.
> > There's no reason why those deep carbon rims can't be strong enough to
> > handle the cobbles if enough material is added, and in a race where a
>
> I agree. And with all the special one-off bikes that are used, I'm
> surprised the wheel manufacturers haven't already.
>
> > 46 ring is "small" the extra weight won't be an issue. In addition to
> > aerodynamics, tall rims don't get sucked into deep mud as hard as box
> > sections.
>
> Is that why those wheels are used so often in cyclo-cross? I often
> wondered why they are so prevalent.
>
> Joseph

Maybe they already have. We wouldn't know by looking at them. Zipp
already makes heavier versions of some rims specifically for
clydesdales and cyclocross. I believe CSC was using the cyclocross
wheels at Flanders because they also had more spokes than usual.

Hobbes@spnb&s.com

On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 04:11:46 GMT, Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@gmail.com> wrote:

>In article
><e58771fb-c5c7-4a31-b5a9-fba6484015aa@q10g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> "joseph.santaniello@gmail.com" <joseph.santaniello@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Apr 14, 6:27*pm, unforgive...@juno.com wrote:
>> > On Apr 14, 8:35 am, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > On Apr 14, 1:17 pm, phs...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> > I think it's just a matter of time before one of the wheel
>> > manufacturers comes up with a batch of Roubaix special carbon wheels.
>> > There's no reason why those deep carbon rims can't be strong enough to
>> > handle the cobbles if enough material is added, and in a race where a
>>
>> I agree. And with all the special one-off bikes that are used, I'm
>> surprised the wheel manufacturers haven't already.
>>
>>
>> > 46 ring is "small" the extra weight won't be an issue. *In addition to
>> > aerodynamics, tall rims don't get sucked into deep mud as hard as box
>> > sections.
>>
>> Is that why those wheels are used so often in cyclo-cross? I often
>> wondered why they are so prevalent.
>
>I believe that's the theory, yes. After all, the aero considerations are
>low, and the weight can't be any better than that of the best
>low-profile rims.
>
>Also, and never underestimate this factor, CX bikes with Zipp 404s look
>way cool.

The aero and semi-aero rims shed mud well and are also stiffer and more rugged.
I'm thinking they don't get used in P-R as a concession to rider comfort.

Ron

Tim McNamara

In article <t4l904p023r4g9g1aql63ojurrhjn75kes@4ax.com>,
Hobbes@spnb&s.com wrote:

> The aero and semi-aero rims shed mud well and are also stiffer and
> more rugged. I'm thinking they don't get used in P-R as a concession
> to rider comfort.

Oy. Umm, how much more "shock absorption" do you think box section rims
provide compared to an "aero" rim?

Hobbes@spnb&s.com

On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 14:27:28 -0500, Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:

>In article <t4l904p023r4g9g1aql63ojurrhjn75kes@4ax.com>,
> Hobbes@spnb&s.com wrote:
>
>> The aero and semi-aero rims shed mud well and are also stiffer and
>> more rugged. I'm thinking they don't get used in P-R as a concession
>> to rider comfort.
>
>Oy. Umm, how much more "shock absorption" do you think box section rims
>provide compared to an "aero" rim?

Don't know. They are certainly much more flexible. Are you presuming that it
couldn't make a difference?

Anthony DeLorenzo

On Apr 15, 4:23 pm, Hobbes@spnb&s.com wrote:
> >> The aero and semi-aero rims shed mud well and are also stiffer and
> >> more rugged. I'm thinking they don't get used in P-R as a concession
> >> to rider comfort.
>
> >Oy. Umm, how much more "shock absorption" do you think box section rims
> >provide compared to an "aero" rim?
>
> Don't know. They are certainly much more flexible. Are you presuming that it
> couldn't make a difference?

Probably not as much difference as those air-filled rubber shock
absorbers that are wrapped around the rims, aka the tires.

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org

Anthony DeLorenzo wrote:

>>>> The aero and semi-aero rims shed mud well and are also stiffer
>>>> and more rugged. I'm thinking they don't get used in P-R as a
>>>> concession to rider comfort.

>>> Oy. Umm, how much more "shock absorption" do you think box
>>> section rims provide compared to an "aero" rim?

>> Don't know. They are certainly much more flexible. Are you
>> presuming that it couldn't make a difference?

> Probably not as much difference as those air-filled rubber shock
> absorbers that are wrapped around the rims, aka the tires.

That's not the problem but rather how malleable the rim is so that it
doesn't fracture when a tire bottoms on a road hazard. A thin rim
wall that retains the tire can either bend a little or crack and let
the tire blow out. Therein lies the difference. The aluminum rim can
be repaired using a small crescent wrench to straighten the bead.
There is nothing you can do for Carbon fiber composite.

Jobst Brandt