Pyramid Intervals

BullGod

I am riding the first of the spring classics here in 3 weeks, and right now I have a mammoth base (2,800km in the last month alone) but I am lacking speed, as the only intensity in my riding recently has been 4 short training races, which haven't really gone well, mainly due to the chaos of all categories from pro to junior B and Cat 5 racing together. With a huge peloton quickly breaking up into groups from the first few laps i haven't yet been able to get into a decent breakaway or get up at the front end of the peloton so I've had a frustrating time burning up all my L6 from the off bridging gaps and trying to get up front and then ending up in a group that's going too slow to bring me into form.

As I can't rely on these training races, i thought to add one interval workout per week to my training, which is pretty much 4 x 4.5 hr L2 rides, one race, one recovery ride per week right now.

Some intervals that appeal to me are pyramid intervals.

At this stage of the season I was thinking of using these for L4. I want to avoid L5 and 6 in training altogether as racing should work these enough.

My target FTP is 350, so I was wondering about 1 min 350, 1 min active recovery, 2 mins 350 / 2 mins active recovery, 3 @ 350 / 3 AR , 4/4, 5/5 and then back down again, 4/4, 3/3, 2/2, 1,1 ....

do this twice (10 mins recovery between each set) and you get 44 mins at target FTP, without having to endure the boredom and long lasting fatigue of a 2 x 20. Motivationally, i imagine it easier to hold an uncomfortable wattage if you know it will only ever be for a few minutes.

Not having tried this yet will it be too easy? are these way too short to get any benefits in L4?

Was also thinking of doing this at the end of a 2hr L2 ride.

Another "once a fortnight" option is the absolute ripper:

1) 8-10 x 12 second flat out sprints at max poss intensity - 3 mins rest between each.

then 10 mins recovery:

followed by:

2) 6-10 x 1 min intervals in L6 with 5 mins recovery between each.

Then, the icing on the cake:

3) 4 x 4 mins in L5 with 6 mins recovery between each.

so you do level 7, 6 and then 5....

How often do you thnk this should be done and when (stage of the season) should I attempt this? Obviously a rest day(s) would be needed beforehand and a recovery day afterwards.

thoughts from anyone who is riding (or has ridden) at top level, or coached someone at this level would be appreciated.....getting a bit worried about my form right now....despite all the extra hours on the bike I don't feel much stronger than last year, and I'm riding elite now....

Steve_B

Like I told you before in another thread, why are in the wrong place at the wrong time? You know that the race is going to break up quickly so why are you starting the race at the back, dude? Are all the other Elites and Pros making the first group/first breakaway? If they are, why aren't you?

Don't tell me they have been doing L6 all winter.

daveryanwyoming

Those would fall into the "neither here nor there" category of training efforts. If you want to target your sustainable aerobic metabolism via L4 or lower efforts you need to hold those efforts continuously for at least 8 minutes with 10 minutes generally being the accepted minimum for training L4. Less than that and you won't have completely shifted to sustainable aerobic metabolism. Those minute to five minute active recovery rests are too long to simply use an average power approach to gauging intensity for L4 work.

Either drop those recovery periods substantially (less than 30 seconds) or suck it up and hold those efforts for longer than 10 minutes if you really want to target L4.

If boredom is the issue, how about trying some variation on Bill Black's Hour of Power microintervals? I've been playing with one that's a lot of fun, targets solid SST work and does a pretty good job of mimicking the power distribution of a crit. Settle into a Tempo to low SST pace (~75-80% of FTP or ~260 - 300 watts) add a ten to 15 second seated jump every five minutes and try to regain your steady pace as quickly as possible after each effort. If an hour feels good then try those bursts every 2.5 minutes. Your AP will be solid SST work and NP even higher.

I did an hour of these last night using the CompuTrainer in drafting mode with a pacer and I was shocked how closely the summary stats including AP, NP, peak power and 20 second peak power resemble crits I rode last season. The big difference is that I coast in crits but never get below Tempo during these trainer workouts and the jumps come more frequently in most crits. Still it's training that is actually fairly fun, still targets core aerobic fitness but adds a dynamic element. It's also an efficient way to build CTL, I racked up over 100 TSS in an hour long effort plus WU and CD. The CT in drafting mode helps because you get a big burst during the effort and second smaller one as you accelerate back into the draft(kinda realistic that way...) but you can still do this on the KK or other trainer or out on the road.

-Dave
P.S. Here's a WKO+ screenshot of the power curve for that effort.

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Ade Merckx

Hi Bulldog 've never ridden at Elite level neither am I a coach but here's some observations:

1. Your current FT is 340watt so you're only 10watts away from your target

2. Have you tried the 8mins on 1 min off intervals at target threshold

3. What about L5 efforts at 115-117%

4. How about shortening those level 2 efforts an adding some SST/L4

5. Or, don't sweat it, you'll get that extra 10 watts via racing soon enough

BullGod

Dave, this sounds great:

2 questions:

1 - can i do this after an endurance training? say 2 hr L2 ride and then this? or if not can I? but - is this smart?

2 - What % of FTP should I aim for on the "jump"?

BullGod

I wish man.....most of these guys have been racing for decades.....I'm pretty fit, but only took up cycling at 25....so I'm learning all the time about tactics and bunch positioning. It's infuriating but I still get anxious when it "bunches up" during the slower moments, and I seem to prefer moving up the back during the faster stretches as there is more space and I have the speed. However, I'll move up 10 places on a fast strait, only to have 20 weaker riders swamping past me the moment it goes slow.

Basically my bike handling and confidence moving around the bunch suck. I notice this especially in the preseason races with all the lower cat riders, as some of them, especially the juniors, are just plain dangerous and I find myself easing towards the back of the bunch when it goets hectic only to find myself doing nothing else but closing big gaps once the speed gets turned on. I sa w plenty of other elites mocing effortlessly through the bunch but I try the same only to get blocked off by some guy who won't give up his place for anything......

daveryanwyoming

Well, it's basically the same as high SST or L4 work, it might take a bit longer to recover from because of the bursts but it's fairly interchangeable with those workouts. With your deep training base you may very well be able to do this after a few hours of L2, just ask yourself whether you would do a high SST or L4 effort after the same amount of L2. If that fits your schedule in terms of training and recovery then go for it.
That depends on how frequently you'll jump and how long you hold each jump. I wasn't really focusing on a power level in that workout but it seemed I regularly hit 200% of FTP or more during the jumps but then I was allowing nearly 5 minutes of recovery at Tempo between jumps.

The peak power will have to drop if you; try to hold a higher base pace, try to jump more often or try to hold the jumps much longer. Basically you'll still be limited by the AP you can hold for the entire length. If you burst too hard or too often or you try to hold a higher base pace you might exceed your sustainable AP for the duration and have to back off or quit. Just feel your way into it and see what feels right and is sustainable, especially if it's following a couple of hours of L2 riding.

Good luck,
-Dave

Alex Simmons

Have a look at Bill Black's recent Hour of Power thread for some more ideas.

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BullGod

Thanks. That looks good.

Will try a HOP to,morrow. First 2 hours L2 outside, then an hour on the trainer wholding 270 - 306w with a 1 2 second seated surge every 2.5mins at 200% FTP.

I'll see how that feels.

Bearing in mind I ghave training races sat and sun how soon is "safe" to do this before a race? I am not working at the moment so am only either training or resting.....lucky me :-)

apart from 4 short races this will be my first intensity work of the year........

grahamspringett

Bullgod, your figures show you're at least a V6, if not the V8 you might need to be. I am only probably a triple at the moment, but I have found that an hour of power is just the job for simulating paceline efforts.

My numbers would be much lower than yours but the effort we both make would be comparable. I find the 30 seconds of real hard effort with SST recovery (on my trainer) is actually harder than doing a paceline with some pretty strong guys.

I'm sure you know what you're doing as you don't get a FTP of 350 by messing around!

As for positioning, get up the front and stay there. Don't be intimidated by more experienced riders, don't be elbowed out. It's a race, you are allowed to be aggressive. Don't act stupid, you've all got to stay upright, but from what you're saying it sounds like you're being beaten before the flag drops.

You've got the power, you just need to psych up to kick butt!

Steve_B

Yeah, no kidding!

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Steve_B

It probably won't feel good.

Seriously, I do things like this (ride 2 hours immediately before doing a training race) to simulate the fatigue at the end of a long road race. It will make the race (or, in your case, the L4 session) harder but that's not a totally undesirable outcome.

Steve_B

BullGod

Thanks for the tips oin bunch riding. It is a weak point for me. I waste way too much energy either being near the back through corners or moving up at the wrong times only to get passed again when it slows. This weekend I am lining up at the front and going hard from the off. When things break up I intend to be right up in the running.

I tried the HOP workout, but I got too into it in the first 10 minutes and saw I was sitting on or above 350 for the SST bits......rather than ease off I decided to tuen the interval into a 20 miniute FTP test and I got 357.......pretty happy with this.

2 more races coming up this weekend so no more intensive training for a while....jut some easy miles and recovery. after 780km last week I need that :-)