Indoor/Outdoor Power

31-12.-2007, 01:38 PM	#1
VARacer Registered User Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Virginia Beach, Virginia Posts: 14	Indoor/Outdoor Power I am a new member. However, I have been learning from this forum for some time now. I have been riding regularly for about 18 months. For the first year+ I never rode indoors on the trainer. I now have young children so most of my training is done inside on the trainer. I usually get out once a week now to ride outdoors. I started training seriously about 6 weeks ago (i.e., actually doing structured intervals, etc.) and immediately purchased a PT. I weigh about 77 kg and my indoor power numbers are as follows. MSSP ~ 1310 watts 5 sec ~ 1210 watts 30 sec ~ 825 watts 1 min ~ 610 watts 5 min ~ 370 watts FTP ~ 295 watts I am not looking for - nor obviously deserving of - a backslap here. Nothing specials about those numbers. However, the perplexing thing to me is that my outdoor rides appear to be at LESS power. I bet you all did not see that coming. For example, if I ride for an hour my NP will be around 255 watts. If I ride 2 hours the NP will be around 240 watts. My max sprint effort outside is around 1000 watts. Further, I appear to have difficulty attaining my other numbers as well. Originally I thought this was because of the fact that I ride outside alone and do the same route every time. However, clearly I ride my trainer alone. I am at a loss to explain this situation. Any guidance would be appreciated. I am getting fairly discouraged. My goal is to race this year. Given the above situation, unless such races are in my garage on the trainer, I may have to rethink my goals. Thanks in advance.

31-12.-2007, 05:37 PM	#2
Alex Simmons Registered User Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 1,561	Re: Indoor/Outdoor Power Same power meter used for indoors and outdoor results? Are outdoor numbers just training or full on max efforts for the duration? __________________ http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/ http://www.cyclecoach.com/

01-01.-2008, 02:10 AM

VARacer

Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2007

Location: Virginia Beach, Virginia

Posts: 14

Re: Indoor/Outdoor Power

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Simmons

Same power meter used for indoors and outdoor results?

Are outdoor numbers just training or full on max efforts for the duration?

Thanks for your reply. Yes, same PT 2.4 for both. I use the same bike for both. To be fair, the outdoor rides are not full on max efforts for the duration. My route is populated by a lot of starts and stops (lights, etc.). In light of these circumstances, is the PWR differential between indoor and outdoor more easily explained?

01-01.-2008, 03:39 AM

jbvcoaching

Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2005

Posts: 204

Re: Indoor/Outdoor Power

Quote:

Originally Posted by VARacer

To be fair, the outdoor rides are not full on max efforts for the duration. My route is populated by a lot of starts and stops (lights, etc.).

This is most likely it, both the lack of max efforts and the stops & starts. Maybe test outside for the durations that are doable given your traffic issues (you can at least do 5s and 1M, maybe even 5M).

It could also be you're not torque zeroing the unit every ride, and it reads high indoors for whatever reason.

There are, in my experience, a very few people who can do better power indoors on a trainer than outdoors. Most people go the other way, but you wouldn't be the first to be better indoors.

01-01.-2008, 03:46 AM

daveryanwyoming

Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2006

Posts: 1,356

Re: Indoor/Outdoor Power

Quote:

Originally Posted by VARacer

...My route is populated by a lot of starts and stops (lights, etc.). In light of these circumstances, is the PWR differential between indoor and outdoor more easily explained?

Yes.

All of these tools assume you actually make hard efforts for the various durations. If your training routes don't allow uninterrupted sections of 5, 10, 20 or 60 minutes then you can't expect to hold high average powers for those durations. You can't just make up for a stop light by going extra hard afterwards and compare that to a steady uninterrupted effort indoors or out. NP can help for variable rides, but it's best applied to hard focused efforts like criteriums or other variable power competitive events. It's still hard to go out on a solo training ride with a lot of traffic stops and hold NP equivalent to what you'd get for AP in a focused uninterrupted effort.

Try to find a long steady climb or a 8 to 10 mile stretch of road without traffic stops or too many rolling hills and see what you can do on that kind of terrain. The five minute efforts don't even require roads that long. All you need there is a couple of miles of steady flat road or a short steady climb.

Good luck,
-Dave

01-01.-2008, 04:11 AM	#6
VARacer Registered User Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Virginia Beach, Virginia Posts: 14	Re: Indoor/Outdoor Power Thanks for the kind and thoughtful replies. I was becoming afraid that I was becoming an expert indoor trainer rider! My initial feeling - until I read Dave's kind reply - was that NP should take into account the variability of the outside ride to make a better comparison to my indoor numbers. Thanks for clearing that up. One additional follow up. Are the above PWR numbers sufficient to hang in a Cat 5 crit? As mentioned, my goal is to race this year. I plan to continually improve, but do not want to be completely discouraged when I jump into my first event.

01-01.-2008, 04:53 AM

jbvcoaching

Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2005

Posts: 204

Re: Indoor/Outdoor Power

Quote:

Originally Posted by VARacer

One additional follow up. Are the above PWR numbers sufficient to hang in a Cat 5 crit?

Assuming you can ride a bike comfortably in a group of people who are not comfortable riding in a group, and around corners...absolutely! If you have "hammer fest" group rides available (and I know you do down there in VA) with a bunch of cat 3's all trying to win the training ride, those are excellent skills prep for racing.

Here's some good reading on the subject:
http://www.jt10000.com/goyoee/best/stayingup.htm
http://www.jt10000.com/goyoee/best/groupride1.htm

01-01.-2008, 11:20 AM

daveryanwyoming

Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2006

Posts: 1,356

Re: Indoor/Outdoor Power

Quote:

Originally Posted by VARacer

...Are the above PWR numbers sufficient to hang in a Cat 5 crit?...

I'm with John, you've got more than enough raw power to hold your own in a Cat 5 crit. The question is how well you'll be able to ride the course, hold speed in the corners, stay upright around developing riders, stay near the front, position for the sprint, etc.

Your power numbers are very impressive for a Cat. 5 rider. 3.8 W/Kg should go a long ways even in a hilly event and a sustainable 295 watts is plenty to hold your own on a flatter course. Power isn't everything in mass start racing, especially crits and pack riding experience will be crucial but having power at your disposal sure helps

Take the advice above, do some fast group rides and as the season approaches think about some microintervals to work on your acceleration and snap but you're starting from a very good place.

Good luck,
Dave

01-01.-2008, 11:40 AM

Alex Simmons

Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2006

Location: Sydney, Australia

Posts: 1,561

Re: Indoor/Outdoor Power

Quote:

Originally Posted by VARacer

One additional follow up. Are the above PWR numbers sufficient to hang in a Cat 5 crit? As mentioned, my goal is to race this year. I plan to continually improve, but do not want to be completely discouraged when I jump into my first event.

There's only one way to find out

. Go race!

And never be discouraged by a first race (or a 2nd, 3rd etc). None of us ever stops learning.

__________________
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/
http://www.cyclecoach.com/

03-01.-2008, 08:36 AM

#10

doctorSpoc

Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2005

Location: Canada

Posts: 853

Re: Indoor/Outdoor Power

Quote:

Originally Posted by VARacer

I am a new member. However, I have been learning from this forum for some time now.

I have been riding regularly for about 18 months. For the first year+ I never rode indoors on the trainer. I now have young children so most of my training is done inside on the trainer. I usually get out once a week now to ride outdoors. I started training seriously about 6 weeks ago (i.e., actually doing structured intervals, etc.) and immediately purchased a PT. I weigh about 77 kg and my indoor power numbers are as follows.

MSSP ~ 1310 watts
5 sec ~ 1210 watts
30 sec ~ 825 watts
1 min ~ 610 watts
5 min ~ 370 watts
FTP ~ 295 watts

I am not looking for - nor obviously deserving of - a backslap here. Nothing specials about those numbers. However, the perplexing thing to me is that my outdoor rides appear to be at LESS power. I bet you all did not see that coming.

For example, if I ride for an hour my NP will be around 255 watts. If I ride 2 hours the NP will be around 240 watts. My max sprint effort outside is around 1000 watts. Further, I appear to have difficulty attaining my other numbers as well.

Originally I thought this was because of the fact that I ride outside alone and do the same route every time. However, clearly I ride my trainer alone. I am at a loss to explain this situation. Any guidance would be appreciated. I am getting fairly discouraged.

My goal is to race this year. Given the above situation, unless such races are in my garage on the trainer, I may have to rethink my goals.

Thanks in advance.

might be about freshness... indoor schedule is usually not as many hours as outdoor schedule

sounds like you have a proper setup indoors. if you've got a proper setup indoors you should be able to get better or equivalent numbers indoors... i though this was impossible up to 1 year ago but that changed last winter.

i think riding good indoor numbers is about 80% proper cooling and 20% inertia difference (getting used to it or adding as big a flywheel). as of last year i started generally averaging better numbers inside than outside after getting cooling under control and adding a large flywheel to my indoor rig. it was only at the end of this summer outdoors that i started getting my outdoor numbers close to what i was doing indoors in Feb and March (1 or 2 workouts even higher). i attribute this to mostly to freshness. in the winter my weekly training schedule is generally about 1/2 of what it is outdoors during builds. at the end of the summer when my training gets cut back (and i'm more fresh) but fitness takes some time to come down, i can actually do my indoor numbers.

but as others have stated... unless you are doing sustained effort for the durations you are doing indoors you are not really going to know what you are capable of outdoors.

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