Can you get BASE RIDE benefits from a short hard ride?

Ariel

Hi,
I thought I read somewhere that it is possible to get the benefits usually derived from a Base Ride by doing a harder short ride. Is that possible? I'm just wondering because normally I would try to get in 3 hour base rides at this time of year. But I'm a little short on time. So for these days that I don't have 3 hours to ride, would doing a 1 hour hard ride be better than doing a 1 hour slow base ride? Anyone have any advice?

Thanks,
Ariel

Eden

Well, the theory behind why you do base rides is this: you want to train your body to burn more of your stored fats when you are riding at lower effort so that when you have to ride harder you still have carbohydrates available for the quick energy you need. (yes you always need to burn carbs to utilize fats, but you want the proportion of fats to be higher at lower efforts) When you do a long hard ride it can be impossible to actually replace all the carbs you are burning through eating - you just can't digest fast enough, so you want to conserve as much of that ready energy as you can for the times you will need it - like for a sprint finish.

So if you subscribe to this theory then no, it makes no sense at all that a shorter faster ride would give you the *same* benefits as a longer slower one. That doesn't mean it may not be better from the standpoint of your staying more physically fit over the off season to do a shorter faster ride if that is all you have time to do.

iliveonnitro

Just do the hard 1hr ride. You'll thank yourself later.

Look up "sweet spot training" on google.

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grahamspringett

Read this, it's quite interesting: http://www.biketechreview.com/op_ed/stripped_down.htm

Seems to make sense to me and, while the author is no qualified coach, he seems to have a lot of experience to back his claims and his thoughts seem to echo those who follow a 2x20 regime. Search for 2x20 on the power forum.

Spunout

No.

Frigo's Luggage

Yes. Unless you are a pro and racing 4 or 5 hours at a pop, your time will be better spent doing shorter intense rides than doing the traditional long slow base ride.

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Bailsibub

Ariel,

Eden touched on this. But let me add my two cents.

What do you define as a benefit? If your goal is to finish a century, then you can ride long and then increase your miles as the season progresses so you know you can finish the event.

Now if you are racing, then you want to look at what is beneficial differently. Performance in most bicycle races correlates with FTP. So your training...base/build/whatever you want to call the cycles...should be based on raising your FTP (the power you can hold for ONE HOUR). The rides that provide the most benefit for doing this are Tempo, LT, and VO2.

Riding slow is good for getting warmed up, but you should be doing work that's going to build your aerobic engine, even in October/November. There is no proof that old-school, long, slow base rides have any place in training. In fact, you SHOULDN'T be doing them.

One hour is plenty of time to do a workout. Try warming up and holding your tempo power, 76-90% of FTP, for 50 minutes. Also try warming up and doing 2x20 minutes at 91-105% of your FTP. These workouts will provide a lot of benefits...more than just riding slowly for an 3 hours (that is if you define benefits from a racing perspective).

By the way, if your races are longer, miles should be increased later, before the event. Focus on increasing FTP first.

Ariel

Thanks everyone for your replies. Eden and Bailsibub really touched on what I was wondering about. (The adaptations that happen within the body.) And yes, I race. For the first time I'm without a coach and trying to figure out how to make my own training plans. I've only been exposed to his training philosophy. And he prescribed tons of base miles in the winter off season. The way he always described it to me was that you had to have a lot of Base Miles or else you will not have the foundation needed to build upon when it's time to train for intensity & speed. Also that Base Training gives you overall fitness and endurance. When people speak of endurance, that just means having enough energy to finish the race right? My races are short. Crits take no more than 40mins and Road Races take no more than 1hr 20mins. So how long of a training ride do I need to have enough endurance to finish those races? Are there some of you that never do 3 hour base rides and are still able to race well? Thanks for your help!

-Ariel

frenchyge

I do 3-hour rides on weekends (harder rides, not 'base' rides), but that's because I don't have the opportunity to ride every day and want to load up before taking a day off. You also have to look at how much total training you are getting in. Especially in the lower race categories, I think you'll be able to race fine without the longer rides, but if you're only doing four 1-hr hard rides per week and the others are able to do four 3-hr sessions (with a proper mix of intensities), then I think their overall volume is going to be harder to beat.

If you don't have the time for longer rides, then I'd definitely up the intensity a little instead of sticking with base miles.

grahamspringett

It seems that doing LSD training for the average parent/worker cyclist is not the best way to maximise your time. It's probably good for somebody new to cycling or picking up after a lay-off, but for somebody who's maintaining race fitness it may be better to work on your FTP, and that's done with threshold work and sweet spot training.

I'm no expert, but I am riding reasonably well on limited time ie around 8hrs/week. The bulk of my time over the past 4 weeks has been sweet spot work and that is paying dividends. I started threshold work this week and I'm looking forward to Saturday's group ride to see how well I go against my peers.

It seems accepted that your functional threshold power ie the power you can hold for an hour is the defining limit of your fitness. If you have a high FTP then it follows that efforts below it will tax you at only a limited rate ie your body can happily hold the lower effort for ages. And efforts above a high FTP do not stretch you too far past your limit.

I guess it's like a V8 holding 80mph, it's only just above tickover, whereas a 125cc would be revving its nuts off and be ready to explode. FTP is all about building a big aerobic engine, and the way to do that is work at or near threshold.

I'm finding it a level which is taxing but doesn't leave me wrecked, and that's good if I have to go to work (and bounce on the trampoline with the kids) as well.

If I was going to do 100-milers then I'd want to get in a couple of long rides just to toughen the rear end and get used to it, but from a fitness point of view, a good FTP will stand you in good stead.

Oh, and a power meter really helps in this!

daveryanwyoming

+1 on this post. It's tough to even talk about this stuff these days since we use the same words to mean different things.

I'm doing a lot of Base riding this time of year. But it's not easy, and not even all that long. I'm riding SST and L4 work for an hour or two a day. Sometimes I'll add a few hours of Tempo on the weekend if the weather cooperates but no L2/L1 LSD on the schedule. It's still Base as far as I'm concerned but I'm defining that as building core aerobic fitness not trying to train my muscles to store glycogen or to preferentially burn fat. The key as grahamspringett said is to build your aerobic engine and from an efficient use of time and recovery standpoint that means SST/L4 work.

I raced some pretty darn long races this past season using this approach and didn't run out of steam or suffer in the late miles so I'm fully convinced that building FTP trumps LSD based endurance.

-Dave

Sillyoldtwit

Yep, I'll go along with that. I didn't do anything longer this time than 58km before my 160km "race" last weekend (should have been 141Km - got lost )
Having built a bigger engine enabled me to cruise at the back. Long training rides just tend to tire you out and result in less productive workouts on the trainer. If your setup is right and you have a good quality saddle that suits you, you shouldn't need to do long rides just to prevent you from becoming a rhinosorearse. Just my 2 yen's worth. Tyson

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daveryanwyoming

Forget the PM and KK trainer Sly, you need a good GPS unit. How about a handlebar mounted navigator, you know..."right turn in one hundred meters"..."you just missed your turn, go back", etc. It'd take more off your time than a few watts here or there

grahamspringett

When I was a junior and a younger senior, I was told miles, miles, miles. Intervals were 'dangerous' and could overstress you and make you ill and so on and so forth.

Then I could never figure why my clubmates would kill me on rides and I would get dropped and they would place in races. I remember one guy used to close his front door, hop on the bike and then disappear in a cloud of dust, and I'd spend ages trying to catch him. Tsk tsk, I'd think, he's going too hard, he'll burn himself out.

There is a photo of him winning a race, arms aloft, while I'm at the side of the road having been dropped, got changed and waited to see him win.

Now, with all this talk of SST and threshold, it all comes clear. I just wasn't training hard enough. My mates were, and they'd trounce me.

So trying to convince me that long steady miles for a 40 or 50 mile road race (and handicap races here in Oz are short and hard) are what I need is I'm afraid a waste of time.

Train smart, train hard, ride fast.