Fat loss - HR, & Pwr zones

vladav

Need help with fat loss. I want to start my first race season next year (rr & crits) and have a few more pounds to lose and have hit a plateau. (sprinter body type)

Need suggestions for making sure I'm in the right Fat burn zones and not into aerobic. I really don't want to lose it via Long slow rides (boring) and would prefer to incorporate fat burn on my active recovery days on the treadmill or outdoor walking. Scheduling on AR days should help avoid cutting into training schedule. Walking seems to be far more effective for me to lose weight even though I hate it just as much as LSD.

Q: Should I use:
Bike + HR?
Walking + HR?
Bike + Pwr?
If HR, then do I use different % of Max for Bike vs Walking?
If Pwr what zones?

Doing the following has already netted me 8lbs loss:
1) Not eating >2hr before bedtime
2) Restricting daily calories by activity level (Rarely drop it below ~BMR)
3) Recovery shake(s) after every light to hard workout
4) Taking anticatabolic supplements before bedtime
5) Eating regularly throughout the day (Not every day though)
6) Increasing % of whole foods & fruits


Stats:
29yrs
5'6" (167cm)
168-172lbs (76-78kg) Current weight
156-160 (71-72kg) Ideal race weight (Based on prior 146lbs lean mass @8% bf while bike commuting and horrible nutrition habits 10 years ago.)
Max HR?
192 = 0.14% of season (Or 12:51 min)
198 = 0.02% of season (Or 1:26 min)
203 absolute max (10sec)

It's difficult to keep my heart rate below 140 (68-72%) on the bike for very long which is probably why walking is more effective for me?


Anyways thanks for any assistance!
Dave

Yojimbo_

I think you should pack in the HR zones, and just try to generate a 500 calorie a day deficit. You can do this through a combination of watching what you eat, and getting some exercise.

If you are successful, you will lose 1 lb/wk.

vladav

Yohimbo you're absolutely correct - that is one way, but:

Going that route puts me into the "hunry all the time" mode which for me is dangerous because then I tend to lose 'connection' with my stomach and I lower calories/day too much - losing muscle, fitness, freshness.

It is easier for me to instinctively maintain a slightly over filled 'tank' than a slightly underfilled one, and focus my calorie deficit in connection with excersize just 1-2 days per week. I'm trying with everyone's help here to make sure I'm maximizing those days with the appropriate intensity levels

For me it's psychologically & organizationally too difficult to count calories every single day.

Thanks,
Dave

Yojimbo_

I have a hard time believing in fat burning zones to tell the truth. As I understand it (and I am no expert), at lower intensities a greater proportion of the total calorie expenditure comes from fat burning. At higher intensities, because your body can't supply enough energy from fat burning, other sources come into play.

That total amount of fat calories you burn is roughly the same in both cases.

And wrt counting calories, I don't think you need to. Just have some idea of what the caloric values of food are, so you know that when you put that tablespoon of mayo on your sandwich, you've just added a little more than 100 calories. For me, it's all about making informed choices - if you can do that, the lbs will come off.

GinaNY

imho - the "fat burning zone" can be useful, but obviously, you aren't staying there all the time. Basically, you need oxygen to burn fat, so if you can carry on a conversation, you're right on. If you're huffing and puffing, you're too far.

So try it out on a treadmill or something. Get up around 120 and start reciting some poetry or something (don't sing, that is something else) and see where you get to the point that you're breathing a little too hard to do this. That is right around your max for fat burning, or so I've been told.

It is a simple, not too sceintific way so take it for what it's worth.

I've lost a huge amount of weight using a combination of low intensity and interval training. You almost have to find your own balance and be careful that you eat enough! That will slow you down faster than anything. Your body won't let you starve.

Hope that isn't all rubbish.

__________________
GinaNY

vladav

Thanks for the perspective Yojimbo - I'll keep that in my repertoire

Gina - thanks, sounds like Ventilatory Threshold? I'll try that...
The poetry part is going to make it excuciating - so it will feel like a real workout

Dave

surfinbernard

Hi I'm new here.

I'm not that into zone training as it's so time consuming. Yes the ratio of fat vs other available energy changes once you start working harder, but the calories you burn per hour is significantly increased when pushing yourself, so you would have to exercise for considerably longer sessions to burn equal fat with your HR in the 'fat burn' zone dispite the ratio being in favour of fat loss.

It's so boring doing 'moderate' exercise, I would rather spend an hour in the spin room working my wotsits off than 4 hours walking any day. Of course overall health and fitness is about much more than just cardio, and a sensible diet is a necessary factor. Resistance training is good as the body uses more calories even whilst at rest with improved muscle tone, and improved strength and stamina is no bad thing either.

SB

ric_stern/RST

The fat burning zone is a myth. All that matters for weight loss is that you expend more energy than you take in.

By exercising ine the "fat burning zone" you're exercising at such a low intensity that it would take a lot longer to create an energy deficit (whatever the substrate use) than if you were to exercise at a higher intensity.

So, if all that matters is weight loss, you should exercise at the *HIGHEST* intensity that you can manage for the duration that you have available for training and be able to recover for the next exercise bout.

Ric

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vladav

ArrrggggHHH! I'm looking for something to do on my RECOVERY days. Preferably off-the-bike to keep the intensity down. LOL!!!

The posts have been informative though, and I gather from the responses that my strategy is crap. Well that's good to know too, though less satisfying. I thought this was going to be easy.

But truly - Thanks!
Dave

<wanders off muttering something about calorie counting>
.

Frigo's Luggage

Thank you. I've been telling people this for years and can't convince people that higher intensity is better for burning calories.

I lost about 20 pounds when I decided to race. My suggestion is to ride alot and use portion control. Eat slow and enjoy the food. Don't gobble. Try to eat fruit or something light for between meal snacks.

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leestevens

To let you know where i am coming from, i have just completed a Level 1 cycle coaching course here in Aus. We learnt that to burn fat you have to burn the carbs first. This is 60-90 mins of moderate to high intensity riding. So any thing after 90 mins you should be burning fat. The other option is to run and run hard for as long (almost) as possible. This is pretty much what Ric said any way. There is no other or easier way to do this. Why are you trying to do it on your rest days anyway? This should be incorporated into any and all exercise you do, not your rest days. Rest days are exactly that, not fat burning days.

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GinaNY

Well - I guess it was rubbish, but it took 120 pounds off my butt, so whatever you want to call it, it seems to work for some people. And got me ready to bike pretty intensely.

I've been reading the Cyclists Training Bible - Friel - I'm sure you have that. Anyway, not very far into it, but there is a lot about recovery in there so maybe that will help? It can be frustrating with all the different "schools of thought" out there. In the end, a lot of it just depends upon your body, how it reacts, how many calories you need for your recovery, how much is too much on low intensity days etc.

More than anything, I would write everything down. What you eat, how long you workout, what your heart rate was etc. and see how you recover.

Or - find a coach you like. Thats what I did in the end.

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GinaNY

frenchyge

Similar to what's been said, I think you're barking up the wrong tree trying to concentrate your fat-burning into your recovery days because those workouts *by definition* are not going to be burning a lot of calories. You'll make much more progress by not over-eating after your training workouts, when you have the greatest opportunity to achieve a caloric deficit.

What's your training routine like, and how many AR workouts do you do per week?

Urkiola2

I believe that to the general public the messege about Calories (Kcalories, academically speakig) has been wrongly adressed/explained. I.e. You can burn 2.000Cals(Kcals) in atraining session. Both could be derivated from carbohydrate origin (Glycogenolysis, Glycolysis, Gluconeogenesis) or from Fatty Acids-Fat- (triglycerides and intramuscular vacuoles of triglycderides). However what regulates the fuel source you utilize is muscle fuel energy requirements for muscle contraction-That is, exercise mode-. In the above example of the 2000 Kcal burned they can be an 80% derived from fat and 20% from Carbohydrates whereas the opposite metabolic consequences for your fuel utilisation would be 20% derived from fat and 80% from CHO. So intensity mode is very important. By increasing intensity you will need a higher muscle fiber recruitment, Type IIa and IIb muscle fibers, which utilize more glycogen as well as your muscle fibers per se will need a more efficient fuel, CHO, in order to meet the metabolic demands of your muscles. So theorically speaking, high intensity exercises are not the best ones to loose weight. Another thing that helps though is that after high intensity exercise metabolic rate is higher than after low ntensity exercise so you will more Kcals during a longer period of time and many of those Kcal will be derived from fat. However you will burn less fat than by doing i.e. 5h on the bike on a "slower mode".

About highest intensity possible for the longest period of time, anless you are an alite cyclist you will not be able to sustain 5 h ride at a very high intensity..so if you can sustain 4-5h (even if you think you are going fast) that is because your muscle metabolic demands have reached a steady state level and are utilizing more fat than CHO. Muscle Glycogen storages at 75-80% of VO2 max will only last about 90 minutes, although probably more due to gluconeogenesis derived from lactate,...so if you do 5h...and not eating much there is no way you will do those hours utilizing more CHO over fat but the other way around, herefore loosing more weight.

About the diet, I agree with the a post above, and it has been scientifically studied, that a deficit of about 500Kcal/day is ideal to loose weight.
Usually by putting a 2-3 endurance days per week at a medium-low pace plus watching your diet a bit, I agree with who posted above that you could burn about 0.5-1Kg (1-2lbs) per week.

About your resting days I would try to restrict your cals as much as you can, since you will be burning less then give your body less.

I hope it helps,

Cheers.