Horses on cyclepaths

Rich

Can't remember if there has been a thread about this before, so please
forgive me if you've already seen this.

Bath and North East Somerset (BANES!) council, developed a Horse-riding
strategy which includes allowing horses access to all the cycle paths in
their area, including the incredibly popular Bristol-Bath cycle path, which
has 1 million + trips a year.

The council then spent 10 months consulting horsey groups and a few others.
They did not consult any cycling groups, not the Bath Cycling Club, not the
CTC. We found out about it three days before the Executive member for
Transport, Sir Elgar Jenkins, was due to make the decision, and he received
a number of emails demanding proper consultation. He decided to postpone
the decision, which should have been made at the end of November. We were
informed in latish of December that the council would be holding a Scrutiny
Panel to examine the issue and to make reccomendations to the Exec member.
That meeting was yesterday the 10th.

A lot of evidence was put forward, which I won't bore you with, but that of
the horsey people was rather remarkable. They claimed that there was no
risk at all from horses, and that this was proved by a report from Surrey
university which had researched horse/cyclist conflict and found there
wasn't any (this despite the fact that a cyclist was killed by a horse in
BANES less than two years ago).

Having had somewhat less than the 10 months the horse lobby had had to
prepare their case, we didn't know about this report, but I downloaded a
copy today
I attended the BANES Scrutiny Panel meeting yesterday, and was allowed to
make a presentation (called "disgraceful" by two councillors!) as were the
horseriders, Ramblers, police, NFU and a couple of others.

During the presentations, the horsey people claimed that there was no risk
whatsoever from introducing horses onto cycle paths. They claimed that this
was proved by a report from Surrey university, which no cyclists were
familiar with, since we haven't had time to do the research. I downloaded a
copy today
http://www.countryside.gov.uk/Wider...?printable=true

Far from proving anything about horse/cyclist conflict, it isn't even clear
whether the researchers observed a single interaction/passing movement
between a cyclist and a horse. They also carefully selected the sites to be
observed by making sure that they were dead straight and quite wide, and so
automatically excluded the areas where conflict was likely to occur. They
did discover that pedestrians wouldn't walk where they felt threatened by
cyclists: this effect will be multiplied by horses.

The chair of the meeting complimented the horsey people on "their
comprehensive report". I had to point out in my presentation that they had
had 10 months to produce it, whilst we had had a couple of weeks, including
Christmas and new year. It hardly seems fair that one side has 10 months
and the other has a couple of weeks at the busiest holiday time.

All of the councillors mentioned the lack of consultation, but the one who
criticised this error the most was in favour of a quick decision, apparently
without any further consultation! There appears to be no reason why this
decision should be made urgently, so I'm not sure why the councillor wants
it made asap, and the only reason he gave was that the horsey people were
waiting.

If you live in BANES, please consider writing to your local councillor,
demanding equal consultation with the horse lobby, but please make it soon!
The officers will now compile a draft report, which will then be agreed by
the panel, but there was no indication of how long this will take.

--
cheers

Burt

Tony W

"Rich" <burtthebike@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:C2YEd.104098$48.63886@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> Can't remember if there has been a thread about this before, so please
> forgive me if you've already seen this.

Isn't it normally psychopaths that ride horses -- not the other way round?

T

Chris Bardell

"Rich" <burtthebike@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
news:C2YEd.104098$48.63886@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk:

> Bath and North East Somerset (BANES!) council, developed a
> Horse-riding strategy which includes allowing horses access to all the
> cycle paths in their area, including the incredibly popular
> Bristol-Bath cycle path, which has 1 million + trips a year.
>
<snip very comprehensive post>

Interesting stuff, and clearly a lot of disparity in the amount of time
allowed for *all* parties to put their pitch together. Credit to you &
cohorts for burning the midnight oil.

I'm not anywhere near your area, so I can't comment on the specifics. And
I'm aware of more than one occasion where horses have seriously injured
or killed cyclists.

But on a more general note, isn't there a case for cyclists and horsey
types trying to co-exist with consideration for one another's needs? It
seems that both modes of transport/leisure are equally mistreated by the
car obsession & that it might be more fruitful to join forces, rather
than to take up arms against one another (e.g "naaat aan moy
coyclepaaath!").

I know you mentioned you're referring to horses being allowed onto cycle
routes, but thousands of bridleways are shared between peds, cyclists &
horse-riders. Given sensible consideration (by *ALL* users) towards other
users, minimal conflict should occur. A very interesting thread ran on
u.r.c a month or two ago on the subject of passing horses & what
techniques to use so you don't startle them. Do you know what the
circumstances were when the horse killed the cyclist in BANES? Genuine
question - interested in how the tragedy came about, so we can all be
better-informed in future.

Your posting sounded kinda combative, that's all. Maybe we should be
thinking 'my enemy's enemy is my friend' a little. I'd rather encounter a
responsible horse-rider on a bridleway (& mutually avoid conflict
sensibly) than some ar$ehole motorist on a normal road, who couldn't give
a rat's chuffer about conflict - you're on "his" turf after all, remember
;-)

I'd make an exception though for horsey types who let their horses sh!t
everywhere. This spoils many a good bridleway for cyclists & peds & must
be a health hazard. Why can't adopt the 'take a plastic bag along' (and
maybe a trowel!) technique of responsible dog-owners? Just being lazy
sods? Could any horsey people respond to this moan, please?

--
Chris Bardell
[Remove favourite mode of transport from email address]

Rich

"Chris Bardell" <chris@BIKEdrapeaunoir.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:cs1rbr$rkq$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
> "Rich" <burtthebike@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
> news:C2YEd.104098$48.63886@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk:
>
>> Bath and North East Somerset (BANES!) council, developed a
>> Horse-riding strategy which includes allowing horses access to all the
>> cycle paths in their area, including the incredibly popular
>> Bristol-Bath cycle path, which has 1 million + trips a year.
>>
> <snip very comprehensive post>
>
> But on a more general note, isn't there a case for cyclists and horsey
> types trying to co-exist with consideration for one another's needs? It
> seems that both modes of transport/leisure are equally mistreated by the
> car obsession & that it might be more fruitful to join forces, rather
> than to take up arms against one another (e.g "naaat aan moy
> coyclepaaath!").

Absolutely, and every representative of the existing users made exactly that
point, including the Ramblers, and myself. But there are sections of the
paths which are proposed for sharing with horses which are clearly not
suitable: narrow, poor site lines, no verges. One of the reasons we are so
aggreived is the complete total utter lack of consultation. If they had
consulted, then this could have been sorted out very easily, with agreement
on which paths were suitable. By not consulting, they have made the
situation much worse.
>
> I know you mentioned you're referring to horses being allowed onto cycle
> routes, but thousands of bridleways are shared between peds, cyclists &
> horse-riders. Given sensible consideration (by *ALL* users) towards other
> users, minimal conflict should occur. A very interesting thread ran on
> u.r.c a month or two ago on the subject of passing horses & what
> techniques to use so you don't startle them. Do you know what the
> circumstances were when the horse killed the cyclist in BANES? Genuine
> question - interested in how the tragedy came about, so we can all be
> better-informed in future.

Sorry, I don't know the exact circs, apart from the fact that it was on a
road considerably wider than the tracks in question.
>
> Your posting sounded kinda combative, that's all. Maybe we should be
> thinking 'my enemy's enemy is my friend' a little. I'd rather encounter a
> responsible horse-rider on a bridleway (& mutually avoid conflict
> sensibly) than some ar$ehole motorist on a normal road, who couldn't give
> a rat's chuffer about conflict - you're on "his" turf after all, remember

I'm feeling kind of combative. That's what not being consulted does!
> ;-)
>
> I'd make an exception though for horsey types who let their horses sh!t
> everywhere. This spoils many a good bridleway for cyclists & peds & must
> be a health hazard. Why can't adopt the 'take a plastic bag along' (and
> maybe a trowel!) technique of responsible dog-owners? Just being lazy
> sods? Could any horsey people respond to this moan, please?

The point was made many times at the panel, and the response from the horsey
types was that horse shit isn't dangerous. Well pardon me, but they are sat
six feet above it, and don't have to wash it out of their children's clothes
and hair. Many people have commented to me that they would no longer allow
their children to use the paths if horses were allowed on them, for two
reasons: the danger and the horse shit. I'm beginning to wonder whether
close coexistence with the stuff has meant that the proposers of this scheme
have absorbed said substance and are now regurgitating it!
>
> --
> Chris Bardell
> [Remove favourite mode of transport from email address]

Jack Ouzzi

On 12 Jan 2005 00:35:07 GMT, Chris Bardell
<chris@BIKEdrapeaunoir.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

>"Rich" <burtthebike@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
>news:C2YEd.104098$48.63886@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk:

>
>I'd make an exception though for horsey types who let their horses sh!t
>everywhere. This spoils many a good bridleway for cyclists & peds & must
>be a health hazard.

And indeed disabled wheelchair users .........

> Why can't adopt the 'take a plastic bag along' (and
>maybe a trowel!) technique of responsible dog-owners? Just being lazy
>sods? Could any horsey people respond to this moan, please?

Here Here, I will get he butler to follow :-|

Tony Raven

Chris Bardell wrote:
>
> But on a more general note, isn't there a case for cyclists and horsey
> types trying to co-exist with consideration for one another's needs? It
> seems that both modes of transport/leisure are equally mistreated by the
> car obsession & that it might be more fruitful to join forces, rather
> than to take up arms against one another (e.g "naaat aan moy
> coyclepaaath!").
>

My thoughts too. I would be inclined to go for a trial period of
monitoring use, safety and surface conditions over the first year,
encouragement of the horse riders to stick to one side of the path so
any damage doesn't make it unpassable to others, upgrading on the narrow
parts to allow pedestrians and cyclists to pass horses coming the other
way safely (think safety audit), monitoring and prompt repair of any
horse shoe damage to the surface that makes it less usable by cycle,
especially during wet weather spells (that cost element may make the
council think twice)and a reporting line for any problems.

Your biggest problems would seem to be horse shoe damage (they can
really churn up surfaces in wet weather) and safety in the narrow
stretches which can be dealt with by the council widening it. Providing
its not heavily used by horses though I doubt its as big a problem as
you think based on my experience of bridleways where we are effectively
guests on rights of way on horseback.

Tony

bugbear

Chris Bardell wrote:
>
> But on a more general note, isn't there a case for cyclists and horsey
> types trying to co-exist with consideration for one another's needs?

All the more reason for both groups to be
involved in the decision process :-)

BugBear

jonestl@breathe.com

Tony Raven wrote:
> >
>
> Your biggest problems would seem to be horse shoe damage (they can
> really churn up surfaces in wet weather) and safety in the narrow


There is a stretch of mixed use path into Southwell Notts from the west
that is horseridden a lot and it is usually very difficult and
uncomfortable to cycle on.I have to avoid it.
I had thought this was the most important point.

TerryJ

Paul

I think you are right to be annoyed about not being consulted. But like
others I would hope that there would be a reasonable solution - we need to
work with horse-riders (who in particular share many of our concerns about
high car speeds on country lanes).

I agree the main things to look out for are path surface damage (this can be
a real problem on those compacted aggregate Sustrans paths, eg parts of
Selby-York). My personal view on horse poo is that it is an insignificant
problem compared to the way dog poo blights so many cycle tracks. I don't
really mind a bit of horse (or cow) poo transporting itself to the floor of
my garage my wheels. Dog poo is an entirely different matter and we must
stop cycle tracks becoming linear dog toilets.

Paul

Danny Colyer

Chris Bardell wrote:
> But on a more general note, isn't there a case for cyclists and horsey
> types trying to co-exist with consideration for one another's needs? It
> seems that both modes of transport/leisure are equally mistreated by the
> car obsession & that it might be more fruitful to join forces, rather
> than to take up arms against one another (e.g "naaat aan moy
> coyclepaaath!").

This isn't a general case, it's a specific case. I'm going to make 3
separate replies to your post, rather than one long one. My first reply
is to copy an e-mail that I sent to BANES and a couple of BANES
councillors when I first read about the scheme:

I was horrified to read of a proposal to permit equestrians to use the
Bath-Bristol cyclepath: <http://tinyurl.com/466td> leads to
<http://www.bathnes.gov.uk/committee_papers/Executive/WL2004/WL041029/01E496HorseRiding.htm>

I was then appalled to see that the list of consultees did not include a
single cycling organisation. At the very least I would have expected
the CTC, Sustrans, Bristol Cycling Campaign and Bath Cycling Campaign to
have been consulted on a proposal with such significant implications for
the safety of cyclists.

The cyclepath fulfils two main functions for cyclists. First, it
provides a safe and pleasant alternative to the A4 for those of us who
commute between the two cities. Second, it provides a safe environment
for young and inexperienced cyclists to develop their cycling skills.

The introduction of large, easily frightened animals will have an
adverse effect on safety. Children who have been taken out to enjoy a
safe cycling environment will find themselves riding with their heads
alongside the knees of animals prone to kicking when scared. Because
the path is not wide, commuters will find themselves having to pass far
too close to these dangerous animals on a daily basis.

I am reminded of the case of Anthony Bevin, a cyclist and B&NES council
worker who was killed in 2001 by a horse which was apparently frightened
by the red shirt worn by one of his riding companions:
<URL:http://tinyurl.com/52wor> leads to
<URL:http://www.thisiswiltshire.co.uk/wiltshire/archive/2002/01/04/warm_news_local23ZM.html>

Furthermore, the mess left behind by horses will make the cycling
environment much less pleasant. This is already a problem, due to the
few equestrians who use the cyclepath illegally.

The argument for allowing equestrians to use the cyclepath is that the
roads are not safe for them. The correct solution is not to endanger
cyclists by requiring them to mix with horses, but rather to make the
roads safer for all road users. This can be done by proper education of
drivers and by rigorous enforcement of road traffic laws.


--
Danny Colyer (the UK company has been laughed out of my reply address)
<URL:http://www.speedy5.freeserve.co.uk/danny/>
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

Danny Colyer

Chris Bardell wrote:
> But on a more general note, isn't there a case for cyclists and horsey
> types trying to co-exist with consideration for one another's needs? It
> seems that both modes of transport/leisure are equally mistreated by the
> car obsession & that it might be more fruitful to join forces, rather
> than to take up arms against one another (e.g "naaat aan moy
> coyclepaaath!").

This isn't a general case, it's a specific case. I'm going to make 3
separate replies to your post, rather than one long one. My second
reply is to copy an e-mail that was sent to Cllr Elgar Jenkins and
copied to the Bristol Cycling Campaign mailing list:

Can I please ask for this to be reconsidered?
As a primary school headteacher I am used to assessing risk & evaluating
health & safety potential concerns, & this one fills me with dread!
The potential damage to young people is huge - to everyone - horse
riders, pedestrians and to cyclists.

Horses are very powerful and easily spooked by 'the unexpected'.
We take our year 6 class to a working farm for 7 days every year, and
work with horses - they have to be treated with great care and attention.
I think it unlikely that a significant number of people using the path
would be aware of the dangers.

I could elaborate, but think this should be reconsidered purely as an
activity with a very high risk factor, & risks which are not removable
by any of the usual preventive means.
Yours sincerely,
Keith Johnson

http://www.luckwell.bristol.sch.uk/index.html

--
Danny Colyer (the UK company has been laughed out of my reply address)
<URL:http://www.speedy5.freeserve.co.uk/danny/>
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

Danny Colyer

Chris Bardell wrote:
> Do you know what the
> circumstances were when the horse killed the cyclist in BANES? Genuine
> question - interested in how the tragedy came about, so we can all be
> better-informed in future.

My third reply to your post is to answer this question - well, sort of.
I don't know of a case in the last 2 years, but I know of a case in
2001 (which was discussed here at the time). This may be the case that
Rich was referring to:

<URL:http://tinyurl.com/52wor> leads to
<URL:http://www.thisiswiltshire.co.uk/wiltshire/archive/2002/01/04/warm_news_local23ZM.html>

The victim was actually a BANES council manager.

--
Danny Colyer (the UK company has been laughed out of my reply address)
<URL:http://www.speedy5.freeserve.co.uk/danny/>
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

Danny Colyer

Chris Bardell wrote:
> Do you know what the
> circumstances were when the horse killed the cyclist in BANES? Genuine
> question - interested in how the tragedy came about, so we can all be
> better-informed in future.

My third reply to your post is to answer this question - well, sort of.
I don't know of a case in the last 2 years, but I know of a case in
2001 (which was discussed here at the time). This may be the case that
Rich was referring to:

<URL:http://tinyurl.com/52wor> leads to
<URL:http://www.thisiswiltshire.co.uk/wiltshire/archive/2002/01/04/warm_news_local23ZM.html>

The victim was actually a BANES council manager.

--
Danny Colyer (the UK company has been laughed out of my reply address)
<URL:http://www.speedy5.freeserve.co.uk/danny/>
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

Paul Luton

In message <34k6apF4b7rehU1@individual.net>
Tony Raven <junk@raven-family.com> wrote:

>
> Your biggest problems would seem to be horse shoe damage (they can
> really churn up surfaces in wet weather) and safety in the narrow
> stretches which can be dealt with by the council widening it. Providing
> its not heavily used by horses though I doubt its as big a problem as
> you think based on my experience of bridleways where we are effectively
> guests on rights of way on horseback.
>

Between Kingston and Hampton Court horses are banned from the Sustrans
path. Some suspicious looking damage occurred to the surface and was
tracked down to riders from the local Police College. A few horses can
massively damage a clay/gravel surface.

--
CTC Right to Ride Representative for Richmond upon Thames