What a difference 3-4mm can make

David Kerber

Since I started getting back outside this spring, my harder or longer
rides have been resulting in a bit of soreness in my right knee.
Nothing crippling, just a mild ache at the top edge of the kneecap which
went away in a day or two. I had been meaning to adjust my saddle
height upward to see what it would do, but in my eagerness to get out on
the road, I kept forgetting before leaving on my rides.

Last night during a short, fast ride, the familiar ache started up
shortly before I got to my turnaround point (6 miles out). So I stopped
there and raised the saddle a little. I didn't measure it, but it looks
like 3 or 4 mm. Wonder of wonders, by the time I got back home, the
ache was completely gone, and this morning there's no trace of it.!

It's amazing what a difference very small adjustments can make; kind of
like the 1/4 turn seat tilt adjustments I mentioned in another thread.

BTW, this was one of my faster rides so far: averaged 16.9 mph for 12
miles. The winter hours spent on the trainer are really paying off!

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Pbwalther

>Last night during a short, fast ride, the familiar ache started up
>shortly before I got to my turnaround point (6 miles out). So I stopped
>there and raised the saddle a little. I didn't measure it, but it looks
>like 3 or 4 mm. Wonder of wonders, by the time I got back >home, the
>ache was completely gone, and this morning there's no trace of it.!

It is amazing. I have noticed that extremely small differences in seat height
can affect comfort profoundly. You wouldn't think that the effect would be so
great just looking at a bike now would you?

David Kerber

In article <20040409110646.15260.00000078@mb-m02.aol.com>,
pbwalther@aol.com says...
> >Last night during a short, fast ride, the familiar ache started up
> >shortly before I got to my turnaround point (6 miles out). So I stopped
> >there and raised the saddle a little. I didn't measure it, but it looks
> >like 3 or 4 mm. Wonder of wonders, by the time I got back >home, the
> >ache was completely gone, and this morning there's no trace of it.!
>
> It is amazing. I have noticed that extremely small differences in seat height
> can affect comfort profoundly. You wouldn't think that the effect would be so
> great just looking at a bike now would you?

Nope. I had seen articles about pro's saying they could feel the
difference when moving their seat around by only a small number of
millimeters, and never really believed it, or figured it would only be
noticable to people who spent hours every day on their bikes. I
discovered that I was very wrong on that; I usually only get out for
about 3 or 4 hours per *week*, but I could feel the difference pedaling
as soon as I got back on the road after that adjustment.

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Bruce Frech

I did the same thing once while riding across the country, with 100 miles
per day. Since it was so long ago I'm not sure what was sore but I think it
was my knee. And halfway through a 120 mile day in Colorado I raised my
seat about 5 mm, and by the end of the day the pain was gone!

Bruce

> It's amazing what a difference very small adjustments can make; kind of
> like the 1/4 turn seat tilt adjustments I mentioned in another thread.

xkred27

"David Kerber" <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1ae05a5cd306d5e69896af@news.east.cox.net...

>
> It's amazing what a difference very small adjustments can make; kind of
> like the 1/4 turn seat tilt adjustments I mentioned in another thread.
>
David,

Thanks for the post. Not only did it make me reconsider my unwillingness to
tilt my saddle forward to relieve "numb nuts", it's got me embarked on a
full scale, blissfully obsessive, micro-adjustment program. Until now,
three things got in the way of this:

1) (Thank God for Usenet anonymity) I really wasn't sure how to adjust the
bloody saddle (Still a noob, after all). I have this clasp atop the seat
post, with hex nuts fore and aft. It took a trip to the LBS today to learn
that to tilt the saddle forward, I loosen the aft nut--say 1/4 turn--then
tighten the fore one an equal amount. (To those who suddenly feel blessed
with a towering intellect, you're welcome.)
2) I didn't really believe that a few millimeters could make a difference.
(And they may not, in my case. But I'm gonna give it a shot, at least.) As
I said, you've convinced my otherwise.
3) I was really starting to warm to the idea of shopping for a 'bent (and
may still do so. What the hell. Need to grow a beard, though ;-) )

I've established a baseline tilt thusly:

- Place the bike on level ground
- Place a flat, straight board on the saddle (I used a 1-foot length of 2x6.
Could've run it through a planer, I suppose, except I don't own one.)
- Place a level on the board with the level's bubble perpendicular to the
midpoint of the seat post diameter.
- Set an initial forward tilt whereby the bubble in the level exactly
bisects the aft vertical line in the LevelLiquidFilledCylinderThing. This
translates, more or less, to the saddle's nose tip being 3-4 millimeters
below level.

In about 15 mintues I'll hit the road.

Peter

Anti-spam =
a) Remove NS_
b) Change 3 zeroes to alpha O's

David Kerber

In article <_R%dc.5008$Fo4.58123@typhoon.sonic.net>,
NS_v0ny0rk@s0nic.net says...
> "David Kerber" <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1ae05a5cd306d5e69896af@news.east.cox.net...
>
> >
> > It's amazing what a difference very small adjustments can make; kind of
> > like the 1/4 turn seat tilt adjustments I mentioned in another thread.
> >
> David,
>
> Thanks for the post. Not only did it make me reconsider my unwillingness to
> tilt my saddle forward to relieve "numb nuts", it's got me embarked on a

How is your saddle shaped? Mine has just a bit of concavity in it. and
I set it up so that the front end is as level as I can get it, which
leaves the back tilted up just slightly.

> full scale, blissfully obsessive, micro-adjustment program. Until now,
> three things got in the way of this:
>
> 1) (Thank God for Usenet anonymity) I really wasn't sure how to adjust the
> bloody saddle (Still a noob, after all). I have this clasp atop the seat
> post, with hex nuts fore and aft. It took a trip to the LBS today to learn
> that to tilt the saddle forward, I loosen the aft nut--say 1/4 turn--then
> tighten the fore one an equal amount. (To those who suddenly feel blessed
> with a towering intellect, you're welcome.)
> 2) I didn't really believe that a few millimeters could make a difference.
> (And they may not, in my case. But I'm gonna give it a shot, at least.) As
> I said, you've convinced my otherwise.

3-4 mm of tilt may even be way too much (I was adjusting the height,
remember), but you won't know until you try it. Don't forget to write
down your changes as you go, in case you have to start mixing them up,
like raising the saddle, tilting it a bit, and raising the bars, all at
the same time.

> 3) I was really starting to warm to the idea of shopping for a 'bent (and
> may still do so. What the hell. Need to grow a beard, though ;-) )
>
> I've established a baseline tilt thusly:
>
> - Place the bike on level ground
> - Place a flat, straight board on the saddle (I used a 1-foot length of 2x6.
> Could've run it through a planer, I suppose, except I don't own one.)
> - Place a level on the board with the level's bubble perpendicular to the
> midpoint of the seat post diameter.
> - Set an initial forward tilt whereby the bubble in the level exactly
> bisects the aft vertical line in the LevelLiquidFilledCylinderThing. This
> translates, more or less, to the saddle's nose tip being 3-4 millimeters
> below level.
>
> In about 15 mintues I'll hit the road.

Let us know how it goes!


--
Dave Kerber
Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.

xkred27

David Kerber" <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote
>
> How is your saddle shaped? Mine has just a bit of concavity in it. and
> I set it up so that the front end is as level as I can get it, which
> leaves the back tilted up just slightly.
>
That may also be the case with mine (Koobi Enduro PRS). There's a photo at


http://www.koobi.com/koobi/showdetl...t_ID=35&CATID=3

but it isn't from an angle that tells whether the back is a hair higher.
>
> 3-4 mm of tilt may even be way too much (I was adjusting the height,
> remember), but you won't know until you try it. Don't forget to write
> down your changes as you go, in case you have to start mixing them up,
> like raising the saddle, tilting it a bit, and raising the bars, all at
> the same time.
>
The baseline I described in my earlier post (i.e., having the bubble in the
level bisect the aft vertical line in the glass cylinder) was an LBS
suggestion. Since I calculated the tilt in millimeters by lifting the level
until the bubble was dead center in the cylinder, my guess is highly
unreliable, given normal unsteadiness of hand. In any case it was a place
to start. And yes, tonite's project is to set up Saddle Positioning
Spreadsheet.xls with too many columns to mention.
>
> Let us know how it goes!
>
Would really love to hear feedback on any of what follows, because it really
may make or break me riding an upright bicycle. I rode a leisurely 12 miles
at 13 mph (so just short of 1 hour)--intentionally slower than my normal
~15mph for this route.

[ Question: Might lower cadence and absence of hills skew results, or is it
a non-issue?]

I felt rather more pressure on my hands, which was to be expected, but no
inordinate discomfort--certainly no outright pain or numbness in the upper
body. Certainly didn't feel like I was sliding forward on the saddle.
_Toe_ numbness, which heretofore had always crept up on me 30-45 minutes
into a ride, was 90 percent eliminated. EXCELLENT!

As for penile numbness, well, it went like this. Right at the outset, I
realized that, in addition to saddle tilt, there was a second issue needing
attention--the position of my penis when I ride. Ordinarily, when in
non-biking mode, my penis rides left of center. On the bike, I've been
adopting this position for two reasons: 1) because it feels natural, and 2)
because following some surgery last year, I had to be catheterized. (Guys,
avoid this if possible--especially if the nurse seems testy.) As a result,
I've had episodes of what I'd call urethral pain down the length of my
penis. This was exacerbated when I rode a bicycle with my penis dead
center. So I slung it off to the left. About 45 minutes into the ride, I
noticed F**K, I'm completely numb! Little Petie, speak to me! Speak to me!
I needed no further prompting to reposition the seemingly lifeless member
right into the full-length, now highly appreciated Koobi saddle cutout.
Dork that I am, I didn't pay attention to the single huge difference between
the Koobi and my old Specialized Milano (aside from firmness)---on the
Milano the cutout went from the back of the saddle to about midpoint, then
just bloody ended (so no cutout, really, for my penis). The Koobi, OTOH,
gives me cutout right where I need it, I think. More experimentation is
definitely necessary.

[Question: Gents, it may be intuitively obvious to the casual observer,
but I have to ask: Do you ride with your penis dead center, or do you dogleg
left/right?]

As for butt pain, no problem. And Little Petie is much improved, if not 100
percent, but a more rigorous test of function [ :-) is required.

As I said, feedback _much_ appreciated. Maybe I should repost in new
thread to draw a bit more attention?


--
Peter

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b) Change 3 zeroes to alpha O's

Eric S. Sande

>As I said, feedback _much_ appreciated. Maybe I should repost in new
>thread to draw a bit more attention?

Let your package hang as it will, there is no specific advice
availabe on this topic except don't sit on it.

--

_______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________
------------------"Buddy Holly, the Texas Elvis"------------------
__________306.350.357.38>>cwhitman@texastwr.utaustin.edu__________

David Kerber

In article <WU1ec.5023$Fo4.58331@typhoon.sonic.net>,
NS_v0ny0rk@s0nic.net says...
> David Kerber" <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote
> >
> > How is your saddle shaped? Mine has just a bit of concavity in it. and
> > I set it up so that the front end is as level as I can get it, which
> > leaves the back tilted up just slightly.
> >
> That may also be the case with mine (Koobi Enduro PRS). There's a photo at
>
>
> http://www.koobi.com/koobi/showdetl...t_ID=35&CATID=3
>
> but it isn't from an angle that tells whether the back is a hair higher.
> >
> > 3-4 mm of tilt may even be way too much (I was adjusting the height,
> > remember), but you won't know until you try it. Don't forget to write
> > down your changes as you go, in case you have to start mixing them up,
> > like raising the saddle, tilting it a bit, and raising the bars, all at
> > the same time.
> >
> The baseline I described in my earlier post (i.e., having the bubble in the
> level bisect the aft vertical line in the glass cylinder) was an LBS
> suggestion. Since I calculated the tilt in millimeters by lifting the level
> until the bubble was dead center in the cylinder, my guess is highly
> unreliable, given normal unsteadiness of hand. In any case it was a place
> to start. And yes, tonite's project is to set up Saddle Positioning
> Spreadsheet.xls with too many columns to mention.
> >
> > Let us know how it goes!
> >
> Would really love to hear feedback on any of what follows, because it really
> may make or break me riding an upright bicycle. I rode a leisurely 12 miles
> at 13 mph (so just short of 1 hour)--intentionally slower than my normal
> ~15mph for this route.
>
> [ Question: Might lower cadence and absence of hills skew results, or is it
> a non-issue?]

It might, because an easier pace would probably have less pressure on
the pedals, leaving more on your saddle and/or hands.


> I felt rather more pressure on my hands, which was to be expected, but no
> inordinate discomfort--certainly no outright pain or numbness in the upper
> body. Certainly didn't feel like I was sliding forward on the saddle.

If it didn't feel that way when taking it easy, it almost certainly
won't when you're pushing harder.


> _Toe_ numbness, which heretofore had always crept up on me 30-45 minutes
> into a ride, was 90 percent eliminated. EXCELLENT!
>
> As for penile numbness, well, it went like this. Right at the outset, I

....

I never thought about it, and just things fall where they may, so to
speak <GG>.

> As for butt pain, no problem. And Little Petie is much improved, if not 100
> percent, but a more rigorous test of function [ :-) is required.
>
> As I said, feedback _much_ appreciated. Maybe I should repost in new
> thread to draw a bit more attention?

Are you sure you want more attention to this issue <Grin>?

--
Dave Kerber
Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

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xkred27

"David Kerber" <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote
>
> Are you sure you want more attention to this issue <Grin>?
>
Good point. ;-)

Time to stop asking questions and simply believe the evidence of my senses.

--
Peter

Anti-spam =
a) Remove NS_
b) Replace 3 zeroes with alpha O's

R15757

Peter wrote in part:

<< Would really love to hear feedback on any of what follows, because it really
may make or break me riding an upright bicycle. >>

<snip>

Peter,

Genital numbness is not an acceptable condition while riding a
bike. I second your motion to tilt the saddle slightly down. Along
with this, consider rotating your handlebars or brake levers up
a little bit, or just raise the bars a little, or a combination. That
will help you keep from putting too much pressure on the
hands while you relieve pressure on your package.

Most importantly, you need to move around a lot on the saddle
as you ride. Change positions slightly on a near constant basis.
You never want to be sitting heavily in one position for any
length of time. Stay light. Slide forward and slide back. Stand on the pedals
every once in a while even if there is no hill.

I find that bike shorts exert an unnatural grip on my package and that I suffer
a lot more numbness while wearing bike shorts than regular boxers and cut-offs
or even jeans.

Robert

Rick Onanian

On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 02:17:26 GMT, "xkred27" <NS_v0ny0rk@s0nic.net>
wrote:
>[Question: Gents, it may be intuitively obvious to the casual observer,
>but I have to ask: Do you ride with your penis dead center, or do you dogleg
>left/right?]

Try dead center, pointing up. Bicycle shorts (or briefs if plain
clothes) may help hold it in that position. That may keep it from
contacting the saddle, regardless of cutouts.
--
Rick Onanian