Much Ado Abouth Nothing

Prot

From CyclingNews:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php...apr04/apr22news
Verbruggen said he still believes "the majority of the pelotón is clean, I
guarantee it."

Case closed. Problem solved.

Brian Lafferty

"Prot" <Prot@K-PAX.org> wrote in message
news:iCNhc.18371$l75.2134@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> From CyclingNews:
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php...apr04/apr22news
> Verbruggen said he still believes "the majority of the pelotón is clean, I
> guarantee it."
>
> Case closed. Problem solved.

I wonder what the terms of the guarantee are.

Jeff Jones

"Prot" <Prot@K-PAX.org> wrote in message
news:iCNhc.18371$l75.2134@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> From CyclingNews:
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php...apr04/apr22news
> Verbruggen said he still believes "the majority of the pelotón is clean, I
> guarantee it."
>
> Case closed. Problem solved.
>
I like your new nickname :-) I take it you know what it means in Flemish.
Interestingly, that's what they are calling the ProTour in Belgium...

Jeff

Davey Crockett

"Prot" <Prot@K-PAX.org> writes:

> From CyclingNews:
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php...apr04/apr22news
> Verbruggen said he still believes "the majority of the pelotón is clean, I
> guarantee it."
>
> Case closed. Problem solved.
>
>
I was wondering if Hein hadn't been smoking bad Hash.

That statement is full of inaccuracies.

The actual facts are greatly at variance with what Hein was spouting.

Insofar as I have any information Manzano was not paid for the press interviews.

And the peloton (taken as a whole) is no cleaner than it was in the Halcyon PDM Festina days I'm sure. I had thought that it was, but recent events have changed my mind. (Geez, didn't Sean move from PDM to Festina?)

Now despite the numerous critical e-mails I have sent him over the years, I have always been a big supporter of Hein Verbruggen and having regard to his position, Hein could not afford to say anything much other than what he did say. I just thought the slurs on Manzano's name and reputation were a little ``trop''.

And as far as replacing him goes, it would be difficult to find anyone who could handle the position better.

But in the drug testing vein (no pun intended) I've come to the conclusion that the tests are not revealing the whole story.

Several riders have been implicated in doping schemes notwithstanding that they have been tested previously on numerous occasions with negative results. Manzano made a lot of sense as far as I am concerned. Particularly the allegations that the root cause of the doping is in the team management and medical cadre. Knowing how to avoid positives takes an intimate knowledge of the rider and precise and detailed knowledge of the characteristics of the doping agent or agents of choice. No rider can do this on his own.

--
le Vent a Dos
Davey Crockett
Six-Day site: http://members.rogers.com/sixday/sixday.html

Jonathan v.d. Sluis

Davey Crockett <Davey_Crockett@rogers.com> schreef in berichtnieuws
87hdvcxm8l.fsf@cpe000423176ea9-cm0f...able.rogers.com...
> Now despite the numerous critical e-mails I have sent him over the years,
I have always been a big supporter of Hein Verbruggen and having regard to
his position, Hein could not afford to say anything much other than what he
did say. I just thought the slurs on Manzano's name and reputation were a
little ``trop''.

But what else can he do? If he admitted that Manzano was right, he would
indirectly be accusing many riders that are (or were!) part of Kelme,
because Manzano states that the drugs were forced on him. If Manzano's story
is correct, it is only logical that Botero, Heras, Sevilla and Valverde used
dope as well. The credibility of the teams that hired some of these (the
first three, obviously) is also called into question: did they stop using
dope when they switched teams or not? Did they tell their new team about the
way they were treated at Kelme? If they could also perform well without
doping, why did they not leave earlier? Why hasn't Botero ridden well since
he left Kelme?

The real question is: are other teams different? Verbruggen would like us to
believe so, but I suspect otherwise.

Jonathan.

Curtis L. Russell

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 11:05:38 GMT, "Brian Lafferty"
<javaeye1@nospamearthlink.net> wrote:

>I wonder what the terms of the guarantee are.

I think he only guaranteed that he thinks the peleton is mostly clean.
Or that he thinks. The rest is kind of up in the air.

There is a political career for this guy, I think.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

TM

"Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <nospam@nospam.nl> wrote in message
news:c68fgj$4fj$1@reader08.wxs.nl...
>
> Davey Crockett <Davey_Crockett@rogers.com> schreef in berichtnieuws
> 87hdvcxm8l.fsf@cpe000423176ea9-cm0f...able.rogers.com...
<snip>
>Why hasn't Botero ridden well since
> he left Kelme?
>
> The real question is: are other teams different? Verbruggen would like us
to
> believe so, but I suspect otherwise.
>
> Jonathan.
>
Obviously Botero hasn't performed well after Kelme and that would lead me
to suspect otherwise ( the other, otherwise)

But seriously, I think the interesting way this whole story can turn doesn't
focus on individual riders. The real issue is staff accountability and the
enforcement culture in Spain.

Manzano implicated three doctors with the main one (somebody correct me if
I'm wrong) being with Once and now with Liberty Seguros. Who knows what
lifting up that rock will reveal.

Manzano also talks often about the lack of seriousness with which the issue
is treated in Spain. A lot of foreign riders seemed to choose Spain as a
base. Is it because the enforcement climate is as favorable as the weather?
I am not saying that it is the reason, but if it is and all of the sudden it
changes will it catch any riders or suppliers off guard?

I still believe that a well trained rider who is clean can compete with a
doped rider who does not have as sophisticated a training regiment. I
believe pro cycling contains its fair share of both.

Robert Chung

Davey Crockett wrote:
> Knowing how to avoid positives
> takes an intimate knowledge of the rider and precise and detailed
> knowledge of the characteristics of the doping agent or agents of
> choice. No rider can do this on his own.

You mean, like getting around a cortisone positive by drinking 3 litres of
water?

I found the Manzano interview in cyclingnews.com fascinating because it
would suggest that doping isn't universal -- it's targeted. If that's so,
then the question is, to whom is it targeted? And the natural follow-up
is, what are the characteristics of those who have been caught doping, and
are they consistent or inconsistent with the hypothesis about targeting?

Tom Kunich

"Brian Lafferty" <javaeye1@nospamearthlink.net> wrote in message
news:6GNhc.4649$eZ5.1413@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "Prot" <Prot@K-PAX.org> wrote in message
> news:iCNhc.18371$l75.2134@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> > From CyclingNews:
> >
> > http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php...apr04/apr22news
> > Verbruggen said he still believes "the majority of the pelotón is clean,
I
> > guarantee it."
> >
> > Case closed. Problem solved.
>
> I wonder what the terms of the guarantee are.

So, Brian, what drugs do you suppose Lance needed to win that sprint today?

Tom Kunich

"Davey Crockett" <Davey_Crockett@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:87hdvcxm8l.fsf@cpe000423176ea9-cm0f2069983361.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com...
>
> Insofar as I have any information Manzano was not paid for the press
interviews.

Apparently he was. Else why would Verbruggen make such a statement?

> And the peloton (taken as a whole) is no cleaner than it was in the
Halcyon PDM
> Festina days I'm sure. I had thought that it was, but recent events have
changed
> my mind. (Geez, didn't Sean move from PDM to Festina?)

Look, the druggies all hang together and they tell themselves that "everyone
is doing it". So when one of them tells you that "everyone is doing it" that
doesn't carry much weight. Verbruggen made a statement - that they only get
some 1.5% positives and that compares with other sports that are tested at
far longer intervals.

Other tests SUGGEST that perhaps a third of the peloton has used EPO which
is very difficult to find directly and the only indirect method they've been
able to agree on is high hematocrit. Since the tests that were used for this
determination were believed to be accurate but upon which there is no real
scientific study, they can't be sure that their results are indicative.

Unless you're Brian Lafferty and have hard knowledge that every person in
the peloton is using performance enhancing drugs (Gee, the proof of that is
that Brian can't keep up with them on one of their easy recovery rides) Hein
Verbruggen's statements are pretty much as accurate as you can find.

> Now despite the numerous critical e-mails I have sent him over the years,
> I have always been a big supporter of Hein Verbruggen and having regard
> to his position, Hein could not afford to say anything much other than
what
> he did say. I just thought the slurs on Manzano's name and reputation were
> a little ``trop''.

Manzano has been telling HIS story. That is HIS version of the truth. And
it's his version that is being compared to reality. As far as his direct
evidence is concerned I believe him implicitly. But his indirect ideas of
who is and who isn't doping really are a problem.

> And as far as replacing him goes, it would be difficult to find anyone who
> could handle the position better.

It's very easy to criticize someone who is doing their job when you haven't
had to do it yourself.

> But in the drug testing vein (no pun intended) I've come to the conclusion
> that the tests are not revealing the whole story.

The problem is that you have no idea of just how sensitive the testing
methods presently available are. BUT there are rules and regulations that
must be followed to the letter because the results of false claims can be
devastating to a rider's career and could lead to internal and external
legal strife if handled recklessly.

While I want to see dopers caught, I'm not willing to sacrifice a few good
men through mistakes.

Tom Kunich

"Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <nospam@nospam.nl> wrote in message
news:c68fgj$4fj$1@reader08.wxs.nl...
>
> If Manzano's story is correct, it is only logical that Botero,
> Heras, Sevilla and Valverde used dope as well.

Why would that be? If Heras didn't need dope to win the Vuelta then explain
why they would have forced it on him at another time? Same with Valverde and
Sevilla.

See - "under Doctor's orders" leaves it up to the performance of the riders
and the judgement of the doctors who they will and won't suggest dope to.
All you have to do is read the Voet and Kimmage books to see that they knew
men who would refuse to allow ANY doping.

Doping is a problem. 30% of the peloton using performance enhancing drugs is
a serious problem all right. But that means that 70% aren't.

Prot

"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo.com> wrote in message
newsAXhc.7366$e4.2535@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> "Brian Lafferty" <javaeye1@nospamearthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:6GNhc.4649$eZ5.1413@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >
> > "Prot" <Prot@K-PAX.org> wrote in message
> > news:iCNhc.18371$l75.2134@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> > > From CyclingNews:
> > >
> > > http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php...apr04/apr22news
> > > Verbruggen said he still believes "the majority of the pelotón is
clean,
> I
> > > guarantee it."
> > >
> > > Case closed. Problem solved.
> >
> > I wonder what the terms of the guarantee are.
>
> So, Brian, what drugs do you suppose Lance needed to win that sprint
today?

Damn, Tom. After that letter to VeloNews it looked like they got your drug
mix correct at long last. And now you need to see the docs again. Good
luck.

B. Lafferty

"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:zNXhc.7433$e4.6015@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> "Davey Crockett" <Davey_Crockett@rogers.com> wrote in message
>
news:87hdvcxm8l.fsf@cpe000423176ea9-cm0f2069983361.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com...
> >
> > Insofar as I have any information Manzano was not paid for the press
> interviews.
>
> Apparently he was. Else why would Verbruggen make such a statement?

IIRC, everthing I've read has indicated that he has not received money for
his story. He has consistenly stated that his motive was revenge for the
way he felt he was treated by Kelme management. Why would Hein say
otherwise? You think about it and get back to us.

>
> > And the peloton (taken as a whole) is no cleaner than it was in the
> Halcyon PDM
> > Festina days I'm sure. I had thought that it was, but recent events have
> changed
> > my mind. (Geez, didn't Sean move from PDM to Festina?)
>
> Look, the druggies all hang together and they tell themselves that
"everyone
> is doing it". So when one of them tells you that "everyone is doing it"
that
> doesn't carry much weight. Verbruggen made a statement - that they only
get
> some 1.5% positives and that compares with other sports that are tested at
> far longer intervals.
>
> Other tests SUGGEST that perhaps a third of the peloton has used EPO which
> is very difficult to find directly and the only indirect method they've
been
> able to agree on is high hematocrit. Since the tests that were used for
this
> determination were believed to be accurate but upon which there is no real
> scientific study, they can't be sure that their results are indicative.

Those tests coming up with 30% suspected drug use relate to French based
cyclists who are tested (health profiled) with greater rigor than countries
such as Spain. Recall, if you can, that Willy Voight spoke of Spain as a
major source for the drugs that he obtained for Festina. Also, there was a
meeting this past Fall in Spain about the need to address the drug problem
with Spanish teams because there was a problem about to blow up in the UCI's
face (as it now has).


>
> Unless you're Brian Lafferty and have hard knowledge that every person in
> the peloton is using performance enhancing drugs (Gee, the proof of that
is
> that Brian can't keep up with them on one of their easy recovery rides)
Hein
> Verbruggen's statements are pretty much as accurate as you can find.

You really need kaopectate for your brain, Tom.

>
> > Now despite the numerous critical e-mails I have sent him over the
years,
> > I have always been a big supporter of Hein Verbruggen and having regard
> > to his position, Hein could not afford to say anything much other than
> what
> > he did say. I just thought the slurs on Manzano's name and reputation
were
> > a little ``trop''.
>
> Manzano has been telling HIS story. That is HIS version of the truth. And
> it's his version that is being compared to reality. As far as his direct
> evidence is concerned I believe him implicitly. But his indirect ideas of
> who is and who isn't doping really are a problem.

His version of the truth, indeed. Replete with written prescriptions
from the Kelme doctors. There are always two or more sides to the story but
his story is too similar to other riders who have spoke out to be dismissed
as Hein would love to do but can't.

[Remainder of Kunich mental trots snipped]

Tom Paterson

>From: "B. Lafferty"

>He has consistenly stated that his motive was revenge for the
>way he felt he was treated by Kelme management.

Revenge isn't exactly a truth drug.

So, what did you think of the stages today, BL? You know, Tour of Georgia, the
ones Lance won? TT maybe a gimme, but a fast downhill bunch sprint? Did you
know that part of the new training regime this year includes pulling his kids
around the Hill Country in a trailer? Pretty effective, apparently. --Tom
Paterson