Stopping quickly with a fixed gear without doing a header

Peter

Hi fellows. I was wondering if you fixed gear riders can tell me how you
stop your bikes in a panic situation without launching yourselves over the
handlebars as once happened to me when a kid made an illegal left hand turn
onto a one way arterial road.

Sheldon Brown

"Peter" wrote:

> Hi fellows. I was wondering if you fixed gear riders can tell me how you
> stop your bikes in a panic situation without launching yourselves over the
> handlebars as once happened to me when a kid made an illegal left hand turn
> onto a one way arterial road.

You apply the front brake so hard that the rear wheel just about lifts
off. This is the shortest that you can stop any bike of normal
geometry, fixed gear _or_ coastie.

The advantage of a fixie for this is that the pedals give you a better
feel for what's happening to rear wheel traction than you'll get with a
coastie.

That's the reason fixers are better in traffic and on slippery surfaces.

Sometimes you might actually lift the rear wheel off a tiny bit. When
this happens, you know you've found the "sweet spot" for maximal
braking. This happened to me the other night on a local bike path when
a wild goose tried to cross in front of me...

Sheldon "http://sheldonbrown.com/brakturn" Brown
+-----------------------------------------------+
| The wayfarer |
| Perceiving the pathway to truth, |
| Was struck with astonishment. |
| It was thickly grown with weeds. |
| "Ha," he said, |
| "I see that none has passed here |
| In a long time." |
| Later he saw that each weed |
| Was a singular knife. |
| "Well," he mumbled at last, |
| "Doubtless there are other roads." |
| --Stephen Crane |
+-----------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Peter

Thanks for the fast reply Sheldon. My problem was I was over the bars befor
I fekt anything lifting. Fortunately I landed on my feet. Unfortunately the
dountube on the custom built Cyclops Track frame bent just enough to prevent
the front wheel from traversing when the bars were turned. I was able to
straighten it enough to ride home, very slowly for safeties sake, buy
sitting and bracing my feet against the bb and appliying a steady pulling
pressure on the front wheel. I swear that kid was a Kamikaze rider in
training. Either that he had an appointment att the morgue and was hours
late for it!

"Sheldon Brown" <CaptBike@sheldonbrown.com> wrote in message
news:40868505.9060700@sheldonbrown.com...
> "Peter" wrote:
>
> > Hi fellows. I was wondering if you fixed gear riders can tell me how you
> > stop your bikes in a panic situation without launching yourselves over
the
> > handlebars as once happened to me when a kid made an illegal left hand
turn
> > onto a one way arterial road.
>
> You apply the front brake so hard that the rear wheel just about lifts
> off. This is the shortest that you can stop any bike of normal
> geometry, fixed gear _or_ coastie.
>
> The advantage of a fixie for this is that the pedals give you a better
> feel for what's happening to rear wheel traction than you'll get with a
> coastie.
>
> That's the reason fixers are better in traffic and on slippery surfaces.
>
> Sometimes you might actually lift the rear wheel off a tiny bit. When
> this happens, you know you've found the "sweet spot" for maximal
> braking. This happened to me the other night on a local bike path when
> a wild goose tried to cross in front of me...
>
> Sheldon "http://sheldonbrown.com/brakturn" Brown
> +-----------------------------------------------+
> | The wayfarer |
> | Perceiving the pathway to truth, |
> | Was struck with astonishment. |
> | It was thickly grown with weeds. |
> | "Ha," he said, |
> | "I see that none has passed here |
> | In a long time." |
> | Later he saw that each weed |
> | Was a singular knife. |
> | "Well," he mumbled at last, |
> | "Doubtless there are other roads." |
> | --Stephen Crane |
> +-----------------------------------------------+
> Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
> Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
> http://harriscyclery.com
> Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
> http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
>

Zog The Undeniable

Peter wrote:

> Hi fellows. I was wondering if you fixed gear riders can tell me how you
> stop your bikes in a panic situation without launching yourselves over the
> handlebars as once happened to me when a kid made an illegal left hand turn
> onto a one way arterial road.
>
>
Push your bum back off the saddle and brake as hard as possible. The
front wheel can be skidded without you going over the bars.

Paul Southworth

In article <40868505.9060700@sheldonbrown.com>,
Sheldon Brown <CaptBike@sheldonbrown.com> wrote:
>"Peter" wrote:
>
>> Hi fellows. I was wondering if you fixed gear riders can tell me how you
>> stop your bikes in a panic situation without launching yourselves over the
>> handlebars as once happened to me when a kid made an illegal left hand turn
>> onto a one way arterial road.
>
>You apply the front brake so hard that the rear wheel just about lifts
>off. This is the shortest that you can stop any bike of normal
>geometry, fixed gear _or_ coastie.
>
>The advantage of a fixie for this is that the pedals give you a better
>feel for what's happening to rear wheel traction than you'll get with a
>coastie.
>
>That's the reason fixers are better in traffic and on slippery surfaces.
>
>Sometimes you might actually lift the rear wheel off a tiny bit.

This is a good thing?? Sounds like a lot of risk when one can
simply install a rear caliper. When braking you want maximum
friction against the road. When the wheel lifts off, you get zero
friction against the road, and the braking power of your feet on the
cranks is likewise zero.

Sheldon Brown

"Peter" wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Hi fellows. I was wondering if you fixed gear riders can tell me how you
>>>stop your bikes in a panic situation without launching yourselves over the
>>>handlebars as once happened to me when a kid made an illegal left hand turn
>>>onto a one way arterial road.

I replied:

>>You apply the front brake so hard that the rear wheel just about lifts
>>off. This is the shortest that you can stop any bike of normal
>>geometry, fixed gear _or_ coastie.
>>
>>The advantage of a fixie for this is that the pedals give you a better
>>feel for what's happening to rear wheel traction than you'll get with a
>>coastie.
>>
>>That's the reason fixers are better in traffic and on slippery surfaces.
>>
>>Sometimes you might actually lift the rear wheel off a tiny bit.
>
Paul Southworth wrote:
>
> This is a good thing?? Sounds like a lot of risk when one can
> simply install a rear caliper.

That won't help you stop any faster.

> When braking you want maximum
> friction against the road. When the wheel lifts off, you get zero
> friction against the road, and the braking power of your feet on the
> cranks is likewise zero.

Right, and a rear caliper is equally useless when you're applying
maximal braking, for the same reason.

This is explained in detail at http://sheldonbrown.com/brakturn

Sheldon "Stop!" Brown
+------------------------------------------------------+
| A billion here, a couple of billion there -- |
| first thing you know it adds up to be real money. |
| --Sen. Everett McKinley Dirksen |
+------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Benjamin Lewis

Zog The Undeniable wrote:

> Peter wrote:
>
>> Hi fellows. I was wondering if you fixed gear riders can tell me how you
>> stop your bikes in a panic situation without launching yourselves over
>> the handlebars as once happened to me when a kid made an illegal left
>> hand turn onto a one way arterial road.
>>
> Push your bum back off the saddle and brake as hard as possible. The
> front wheel can be skidded without you going over the bars.

Mine can't -- at least, not on clean dry asphalt. If it could, I'd be very
hesitant to brake in this fashion. I can controllably lift my rear wheel
by braking, but I doubt I could control anything if the front wheel started
to skid.

--
Benjamin Lewis

A small, but vocal, contingent even argues that tin is superior, but they
are held by most to be the lunatic fringe of Foil Deflector Beanie science.

Zog The Undeniable

Benjamin Lewis wrote:

> I wrote:

>>Push your bum back off the saddle and brake as hard as possible. The
>>front wheel can be skidded without you going over the bars.
>
>
> Mine can't -- at least, not on clean dry asphalt. If it could, I'd be very
> hesitant to brake in this fashion. I can controllably lift my rear wheel
> by braking, but I doubt I could control anything if the front wheel started
> to skid.
>
I did it the other week coming down a 25% hill. You just release the
brake a bit when you hear the tyre skidding. In this case the asphalt
was dry but there was a bit of loose grit on it. I've also done it on
completely clean dry asphalt and on wet smooth asphalt. Grabbing a
really big handful of brake in a panic can make the front wheel break
loose, and sliding friction is less than static friction so it's quite
possible to keep going with both wheels locked (my record is at least 20
yards, with no crashes yet). It doesn't do much for bike control, but
does prove the point that gyroscopic forces have little to do with
keeping a bike upright. I've heard that in some countries where lakes
freeze over all winter, it's considered a mildly diverting challenge to
ride on the ice with the front brake firmly locked.

The point is that no experienced cyclist should ever go over the bars
just by using the front brake.

Ryan Cousineau

In article <yy7ollkpdt3e.fsf@marge.cs.sfu.ca>,
Benjamin Lewis <bclewis@cs.sfu.ca> wrote:

> Zog The Undeniable wrote:
>
> > Peter wrote:
> >
> >> Hi fellows. I was wondering if you fixed gear riders can tell me how you
> >> stop your bikes in a panic situation without launching yourselves over
> >> the handlebars as once happened to me when a kid made an illegal left
> >> hand turn onto a one way arterial road.
> >>
> > Push your bum back off the saddle and brake as hard as possible. The
> > front wheel can be skidded without you going over the bars.
>
> Mine can't -- at least, not on clean dry asphalt. If it could, I'd be very
> hesitant to brake in this fashion. I can controllably lift my rear wheel
> by braking, but I doubt I could control anything if the front wheel started
> to skid.

Practice, practice. You haven't lived until you've slid the front wheel
of a motorcycle. Which I have done, and which I have sometimes done
without falling down.

This is one of those skills that's best acquired by just going out and
bombing around on the trails for a while with a mountain bike. Heck, go
out on a road bike and you'll have a chance to slide your front tire
like crazy!

everything in modulation,
--
Ryan Cousineau, rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine/wiredcola/
President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

(Pete Cresswell)

RE/
> This happened to me the other night on a local bike path when
>a wild goose tried to cross in front of me...

BTW: Don't mess with Mother Goose. (or maybe Father Goose...)

A year or two ago I was crossing a large blacktop parking area when a Canada
goose started that head-bobbing, hissing thing. I started to go wide around
it, but the thing ran over to continue the confrontation.

Thunk I "Geeze, it's just a fushluggener *goose*...We *eat* geese around here.
Outta my way you dumb bird!"... and I charged.

Beeg mistake.

Got by the thing, then saw it take off in the other direction out of the corner
of my eye. Then it did a 180 and came at me from behind at head level
pecking, biting, and beating on me with it's wings.... Was *really* glad I had a
helmet on. Got a few superficial cuts and some nice bruises on my shoulder
blades out of it.

Found out later that one of those things can break your arm. Something called a
"baton fracture" - as from a cop's club....lots of force applied to a very small
area by the bone along the leading edge of the wing.
--
PeteCresswell

Tim McNamara

"Peter" <prekow752@sympatico.ca> writes:

> Thanks for the fast reply Sheldon. My problem was I was over the
> bars befor I fekt anything lifting. Fortunately I landed on my
> feet. Unfortunately the dountube on the custom built Cyclops Track
> frame bent just enough to prevent the front wheel from traversing
> when the bars were turned. I was able to straighten it enough to
> ride home, very slowly for safeties sake, buy sitting and bracing my
> feet against the bb and appliying a steady pulling pressure on the
> front wheel. I swear that kid was a Kamikaze rider in
> training. Either that he had an appointment att the morgue and was
> hours late for it!

I don't get what happened. Are you saying you braked so hard that
you bent the downtube? Or did you run into something?

papercut

Zog The Undeniable <hrothgar19@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<40869bbb.0@entanet>...
> Peter wrote:
>
> > Hi fellows. I was wondering if you fixed gear riders can tell me how you
> > stop your bikes in a panic situation without launching yourselves over the
> > handlebars as once happened to me when a kid made an illegal left hand turn
> > onto a one way arterial road.
> >
> >
> Push your bum back off the saddle and brake as hard as possible. The
> front wheel can be skidded without you going over the bars.

What's the point of getting the front tire to skid? If it's skidding,
you'd still benefit from having a rear brake for additional braking.

In real world situations, I can't envision braking just hard enough
that the rear wheel is about to lift off the ground (but no more)
intentionally and controllably. Such situations where one *must* stop
that quickly usually seem to happen much too suddenly to brake in such
a controlled manner.

R15757

papercut wrote in part:

<< In real world situations, I can't envision braking just hard enough
that the rear wheel is about to lift off the ground (but no more)
intentionally and controllably. Such situations where one *must* stop
that quickly usually seem to happen much too suddenly to brake in such
a controlled manner. >>


A real panic stop might be controlled, but the control is certainly
not derived from some recognizable thought process--"I feel my
back wheel losing traction so I let up on the front brake, then I..."
--no. That aint a panic stop. The real panic stop occurs without the
benefit of such conscious problem-solving and is an artful
combo of two things: (1) an exaggerated, athletic body movement,
and (2) the application of a smooth gradient of force in braking over
a very short period of time (i.e. modulation as opposed to just
slamming on the brakes). The moment comes on so quick there is
no way to mechanically think it through. Any control in that
situation is derived from athletic ability and handling skills that are
learned early in life and practiced over decades.

Robert

Vrishni Vibhuti

Zog The Undeniable <hrothgar19@yahoo.com> wrote about skidding the front wheel:

> was dry but there was a bit of loose grit on it. I've also done it on
> completely clean dry asphalt and on wet smooth asphalt. Grabbing a

You're lying.