Slightly OT: Atomic Clocks

onefred

Hey,

I know this is a tad OT, but I also know that you are the type that take
notice of these things and probably already have done a little research into
the matter.

Last weekend, there was a TMBRA series mtn bike race about two hours
northwest of Dallas in St. Jo, TX. It was a relaxing 7 hour drive of mostly
flower covered highways. It was just what the doctored ordered! Anyway, I
brought my atomic alarm clock and, before going to sleep, set it forward one
hour just incase there was no reception in my hotel room. To cut to the
chase, one hour before the race I telephoned my wife to see how everyone was
doing. I was on the road in route to the race and the first thing that
comes out of her mouth is "What are you doing?" "I'm going to the
competition to warm-up and get ready.What else would I be doing?", I
replied. "I don't know what time it is there, but here it's 8:30", she
explained. "Are you sure?" "Yes, the television station shows 8:30!"
Suddenly, I had a terrible case of tunnel vision and was in disbelief of the
circumstances... "Holy fauking shee-ite!", I thought. It wasn't one hour
before the race -- it was the start-time of the race! My gauddamn clock set
itself back!!! Well, needless to say, I rushed as fast as I could and got
to the starting line an incredibly spirit-dampening 17 minutes after my
group had left. I started w/ the last men's group which was better than
having to start w/the ladies who were all lined up after us waiting for
their start! I was really excited when I finally reached the last rider in
my group, but he was riding at what seemed like -5 MPH. He may as well have
been going in reverse!! Something was obviously wrong, so I asked him how
he was feeling. "Not great. I have leg cramps.", he said. I quickly lost
my grin when I realized he probably wouldn't even finish... I managed to
pass a few more in my group and was happy not to finish last.

Sigh. Well, the course was super fast. It was the first dry one of this
race season and the weather was nice. So I still had a blast, and that's a
good thing.

But back to the atomic clock problem. Mine didn't change to the correct
hour until Monday morning!!! What is the point of having an atomic alarm
clock if it does not change the hour automatically when daylight savings
comes and goes??? So that I wake up at exactly the same second every
morning??? Now, that's laughable!

The amazing thing to learn from this experience was that NASA engineers
don't need to get to work on time until a few days after we non-NASA folk
do! I guess their communications satellites don't need to know the correct
time until Monday, too. I thought it was Federal law that required us to
observe daylight savings, so why wouldn't the government have it right?
Maybe the government employee who is responsible for setting their official
clock was late getting to work to set it forward one hour. Now wouldn't
that be appropriate!!

I am harboring really nasty feelings towards my alarm clock and half of me
wants to throw it into a brick wall, or run over it w/ my car, but my other
half knows that this would be unreasonable.

Dave

Ron Hardin

WWVB broadcasts a daylight bit starting at 00:00 UTC for that day.
The clock has to receive it, and then remember it without acting on
it for some number of hours until 2 in the morning local time; then
set itself forward; and then manage to avoid stumbling over the logic
to achieve this for the rest of the day.

La Crosse atomic wall clocks all set themselves back to standard time
in the spring as soon as it's the next UTC day, in a fairly spectacular
chip design bug. It's correct again the following local day.

In particular though, the clock itself doesn't know about the calendar
but just follows the daylight bit as broadcast, and a little local
processing that may be wrong.
--
Ron Hardin
rhhardin@mindspring.com

On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.

carlfogel

Onefred wrote:
> Hey,
> I know this is a tad OT, but I also know that you are the type that take
> notice of these things and probably already have done a little research
> into the matter.
> Last weekend, there was a TMBRA series mtn bike race about two hours
> northwest of Dallas in St. Jo, TX. It was a relaxing 7 hour drive of
> mostly flower covered highways. It was just what the doctored ordered!
> Anyway, I brought my atomic alarm clock and, before going to sleep, set
> it forward one hour just incase there was no reception in my hotel room.
> To cut to the chase, one hour before the race I telephoned my wife to
> see how everyone was doing. I was on the road in route to the race and
> the first thing that comes out of her mouth is "What are you doing?"
> "I'm going to the competition to warm-up and get ready.What else would I
> be doing?", I replied. "I don't know what time it is there, but here
> it's 8:30", she explained. "Are you sure?" "Yes, the television station
> shows 8:30!" Suddenly, I had a terrible case of tunnel vision and was in
> disbelief of the circumstances... "Holy fauking shee-ite!", I thought.
> It wasn't one hour before the race -- it was the start-time of the race!
> My gauddamn clock set itself back!!! Well, needless to say, I rushed as
> fast as I could and got to the starting line an incredibly spirit-
> dampening 17 minutes after my group had left. I started w/ the last
> men's group which was better than having to start w/the ladies who were
> all lined up after us waiting for their start! I was really excited when
> I finally reached the last rider in my group, but he was riding at what
> seemed like -5 MPH. He may as well have been going in reverse!!
> Something was obviously wrong, so I asked him how he was feeling. "Not
> great. I have leg cramps.", he said. I quickly lost my grin when I
> realized he probably wouldn't even finish... I managed to pass a few
> more in my group and was happy not to finish last.
> Sigh. Well, the course was super fast. It was the first dry one of this
> race season and the weather was nice. So I still had a blast, and that's
> a good thing.
> But back to the atomic clock problem. Mine didn't change to the correct
> hour until Monday morning!!! What is the point of having an atomic alarm
> clock if it does not change the hour automatically when daylight savings
> comes and goes??? So that I wake up at exactly the same second every
> morning??? Now, that's laughable!
> The amazing thing to learn from this experience was that NASA engineers
> don't need to get to work on time until a few days after we non-NASA
> folk do! I guess their communications satellites don't need to know the
> correct time until Monday, too. I thought it was Federal law that
> required us to observe daylight savings, so why wouldn't the government
> have it right? Maybe the government employee who is responsible for
> setting their official clock was late getting to work to set it forward
> one hour. Now wouldn't that be appropriate!!
> I am harboring really nasty feelings towards my alarm clock and half of
> me wants to throw it into a brick wall, or run over it w/ my car, but my
> other half knows that this would be unreasonable.
> Dave



Dear Dave,

This sounds like another reason to prefer solar over nuclear.

Carl Fogel



--

Arthur Harris

"onefred" wrote:

> But back to the atomic clock problem. Mine didn't change to the correct
> hour until Monday morning!!! What is the point of having an atomic alarm
> clock if it does not change the hour automatically when daylight savings
> comes and goes??? So that I wake up at exactly the same second every
> morning??? Now, that's laughable!
>
> The amazing thing to learn from this experience was that NASA engineers
> don't need to get to work on time until a few days after we non-NASA folk
> do! I guess their communications satellites don't need to know the
correct
> time until Monday, too. I thought it was Federal law that required us to
> observe daylight savings, so why wouldn't the government have it right?
> Maybe the government employee who is responsible for setting their
official
> clock was late getting to work to set it forward one hour. Now wouldn't
> that be appropriate!!

Two comments:

1) Complex systems fail in complex ways.

2) Daylight savings time is a bogus idea. Take no notice of it. It's for
idiots!

Back to the atomic clock. The clock gets a signal from station WWVB in Fort
Collins, CO. WWVB operates on the ungodly frequency of 60 kHz. Since the "D"
layer of the ionosphere absorbs low frequency RF during daylight hours, the
clock will only get the WWVB signal at night (if you're lucky, and depending
where you live.) This is probably not the best clock to use if you have an
important event that you don't want to miss. Atomic clocks work best when
you set them up in a fixed location, and then don't mess with them.

Here's a picture of the WWVB transmitting site:

http://www.boulder.nist.gov/timefreq/stations/wwvb.htm

Art Harris N2AH

onefred

"Arthur Harris" <n2ah@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:wgCdc.22234$Po2.10089713@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
> "onefred" wrote:
>
> > But back to the atomic clock problem. Mine didn't change to the correct
> > hour until Monday morning!!! What is the point of having an atomic
alarm
> > clock if it does not change the hour automatically when daylight savings
> > comes and goes??? So that I wake up at exactly the same second every
> > morning??? Now, that's laughable!
> >
> > The amazing thing to learn from this experience was that NASA engineers
> > don't need to get to work on time until a few days after we non-NASA
folk
> > do! I guess their communications satellites don't need to know the
> correct
> > time until Monday, too. I thought it was Federal law that required us
to
> > observe daylight savings, so why wouldn't the government have it right?
> > Maybe the government employee who is responsible for setting their
> official
> > clock was late getting to work to set it forward one hour. Now wouldn't
> > that be appropriate!!
>
> Two comments:
>
> 1) Complex systems fail in complex ways.
>
> 2) Daylight savings time is a bogus idea. Take no notice of it. It's for
> idiots!

I agree wholeheartedly.

Dave

onefred

"Benjamin Weiner" <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote in message
news:40772bb4$1@darkstar...
> onefred <dataylor123@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > The amazing thing to learn from this experience was that NASA engineers
> > don't need to get to work on time until a few days after we non-NASA
folk
> > do! I guess their communications satellites don't need to know the
correct
> > time until Monday, too. I thought it was Federal law that required us
to
> > observe daylight savings, so why wouldn't the government have it right?
> > Maybe the government employee who is responsible for setting their
official
> > clock was late getting to work to set it forward one hour. Now wouldn't
> > that be appropriate!!
>
> WTF are you talking about. "Federal law"? There are two and a half
> states that don't use any Daylight Savings Time at all.

Yes, but didn't they have to amend their state constitutions to get around
it? I don't recall exactly but this sounds familiar.

> I had never heard of "atomic alarm clocks" until now, and a little
> Google research. Of course, they are not "atomic clocks" in any
> meaningful sense. They're radio-controlled clocks tuned to a time
> standard. If the maker of your clock can't manage to make it
> update to WWV properly, don't blame the government. What do you do
> if you're in a place that gets bad reception on the time of the
> DST switch - like a building with aluminum siding?
>
> I don't know what NASA engineers prefer (NASA has nothing to do with
> NIST or WWV, of course), but anyone who really needs to know what
> time it is for serious purposes, especially space-based, is using UTC
> anyway.
>
> > I am harboring really nasty feelings towards my alarm clock and half of
me
> > wants to throw it into a brick wall, or run over it w/ my car, but my
other
> > half knows that this would be unreasonable.
>
> It sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Get a clock that operates
> in a known fashion and remember to set the time your own self.

Wake-up on the wrong side of the bed this morning, Ben?

Dave

Benjamin Weiner

onefred <dataylor123@yahoo.com> wrote:

> The amazing thing to learn from this experience was that NASA engineers
> don't need to get to work on time until a few days after we non-NASA folk
> do! I guess their communications satellites don't need to know the correct
> time until Monday, too. I thought it was Federal law that required us to
> observe daylight savings, so why wouldn't the government have it right?
> Maybe the government employee who is responsible for setting their official
> clock was late getting to work to set it forward one hour. Now wouldn't
> that be appropriate!!

WTF are you talking about. "Federal law"? There are two and a half
states that don't use any Daylight Savings Time at all.

I had never heard of "atomic alarm clocks" until now, and a little
Google research. Of course, they are not "atomic clocks" in any
meaningful sense. They're radio-controlled clocks tuned to a time
standard. If the maker of your clock can't manage to make it
update to WWV properly, don't blame the government. What do you do
if you're in a place that gets bad reception on the time of the
DST switch - like a building with aluminum siding?

I don't know what NASA engineers prefer (NASA has nothing to do with
NIST or WWV, of course), but anyone who really needs to know what
time it is for serious purposes, especially space-based, is using UTC
anyway.

> I am harboring really nasty feelings towards my alarm clock and half of me
> wants to throw it into a brick wall, or run over it w/ my car, but my other
> half knows that this would be unreasonable.

It sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Get a clock that operates
in a known fashion and remember to set the time your own self.

Bruce Frech

"onefred" <dataylor123@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:407735fb$0$46513$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net...
>
> "Arthur Harris" <n2ah@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:wgCdc.22234$Po2.10089713@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
> > "onefred" wrote:
> >
> > > But back to the atomic clock problem. Mine didn't change to the
correct
> > > hour until Monday morning!!! What is the point of having an atomic
> alarm
> > > clock if it does not change the hour automatically when daylight
savings
> > > comes and goes??? So that I wake up at exactly the same second every
> > > morning??? Now, that's laughable!


Perhaps your atomic clock works like mine:

It only checks once a day, around midnight. And since the time changes at
2am, it doesn't correct until the next night.

Bruce

Benjamin Weiner

onefred <dataylor123@yahoo.com> wrote: [deletia]

> > > The amazing thing to learn from this experience was that NASA engineers
> > > don't need to get to work on time until a few days after we non-NASA folk
> > > do! I guess their communications satellites don't need to know the correct
> > > time until Monday, too. I thought it was Federal law that required us to
> > > observe daylight savings, so why wouldn't the government have it right?

> > I don't know what NASA engineers prefer (NASA has nothing to do with
> > NIST or WWV, of course), but anyone who really needs to know what
> > time it is for serious purposes, especially space-based, is using UTC
> > anyway.

> Wake-up on the wrong side of the bed this morning, Ben?

I guess you mean it as funny, but it ticks me off when somebody
makes a mistake like failing to set their clock to the correct time
because of an over-reliance on cheap consumer electronics, and
then goes on a rant about NASA engineers and the government.
Don't blame the government for not getting you up in time.

Now if you want to blame anything on NASA _managers_, that would
be fine with me.

BTW, I had to wake up that morning to start (and score) an MTB race,
too. I went around the house at 10 pm the night before setting
the clocks forward. Even the ones in the car (why are there _two_
clocks in my car? Don't ask).

meb

Benjamin Weiner wrote:
> onefred <dataylor123@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > The amazing thing to learn from this experience was that NASA
> > engineers don't need to get to work on time until a few days after we
> > non-NASA folk do! I guess their communications satellites don't need
> > to know the correct time until Monday, too. I thought it was Federal
> > law that required us to observe daylight savings, so why wouldn't the
> > government have it right? Maybe the government employee who is
> > responsible for setting their official clock was late getting to work
> > to set it forward one hour. Now wouldn't that be appropriate!!
> WTF are you talking about. "Federal law"? There are two and a half
> states that don't use any Daylight Savings Time at all.
> I had never heard of "atomic alarm clocks" until now, and a little
> Google research. Of course, they are not "atomic clocks" in any
> meaningful sense. They're radio-controlled clocks tuned to a time
> standard. If the maker of your clock can't manage to make it update to
> WWV properly, don't blame the government. What do you do if you're in a
> place that gets bad reception on the time of the DST switch - like a
> building with aluminum siding?
> I don't know what NASA engineers prefer (NASA has nothing to do with
> NIST or WWV, of course), but anyone who really needs to know what
> time it is for serious purposes, especially space- based, is using
> UTC anyway.
> > I am harboring really nasty feelings towards my alarm clock and half
> > of me wants to throw it into a brick wall, or run over it w/ my car,
> > but my other half knows that this would be unreasonable.
> It sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Get a clock that operates in a
> known fashion and remember to set the time your own self.



Federal law mandates states observe Daylight Savings Time UNLESS the
state legislature specifically votes to remain on Standard Time. If the
legislature does nothing, the state goes to daylight savings time. The
Federal law does have an escape clause that states at the western most
extreme of a time zone often exercise-usually to avoid the problems of
children travelling to school in the dark.



--

A Muzi

onefred wrote:

-snip my Atomic clock made me late for my race-

I like your tale a lot better than the guys who throw their
bicycles after a race and blame the mechanic.

--
Andrew the mechanic Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

carlfogel

Benjamin Weiner wrote:
> I wrote:
> > ... If the maker of your clock can't manage to make it update to WWV
> > properly, don't blame the government. What do you do if you're in a
> > place that gets bad reception on the time of the DST switch - like a
> > building with aluminum siding?
> On rereading the story, I saw that you had the opposite problem - you
> did set the clock forward but it did get reception and reset itself (at
> midnight, perhaps) to standard time. That's extra annoying - just dumb
> firmware. I'm definitely in favor of your running the clock over now.
> Hell, my cheap VCR manages to compute daylight savings time by itself
> from day, date, and year.
> One too many posts to this thread from me, sorry.



Dear Benjamin,

No, not too many posts--I'd hate to have missed this last one.

Most of us aren't willing to type "oops," much less "sorry."

Besides, it clarified the peculiar situation nicely for those of us who
still use sun dials.

Thanks for a good example.

Carl Fogel



--

Benjamin Weiner

I wrote:
> ... If the maker of your clock can't manage to make it
> update to WWV properly, don't blame the government. What do you do
> if you're in a place that gets bad reception on the time of the
> DST switch - like a building with aluminum siding?

On rereading the story, I saw that you had the opposite problem -
you did set the clock forward but it did get reception and reset
itself (at midnight, perhaps) to standard time. That's extra
annoying - just dumb firmware. I'm definitely in favor of your
running the clock over now. Hell, my cheap VCR manages to compute
daylight savings time by itself from day, date, and year.

One too many posts to this thread from me, sorry.

David Reuteler

onefred <dataylor123@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Arthur Harris" <n2ah@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> 2) Daylight savings time is a bogus idea. Take no notice of it. It's for
>> idiots!
>
> I agree wholeheartedly.

bah. i love daylight savings time. can't get enuf of it. i want mandatory
double year long daylight savings time.

... more daylight after work in which to bike.

stuff the mornings, i'm not up then. dawn should be at 9am .. when i start
to think about waking up.
--
david reuteler
reuteler@visi.com