Do you really need a good team in the mountains?

Bob In Ct

It seems to me that you could just sit on Lance's rear
wheel. Except if you have a mechanical or the like, then
you'd have to have someone bring you back to Lance. But
barring that, if you just sit on Lance's wheel, why do you
need a good team in the mountains? What else am I missing?
(Obviously, at some time, you're going to have to pass
Lance, but that's up to you and not your team -- or is it?)

--
Bob in CT Remove ".x" to reply

Pistof

"Bob in CT" <ctviggen.x@adelphia.net> wrote in message
newspsavzigua6snke8@news.snet.sbcglobal.net...
> It seems to me that you could just sit on Lance's rear
> wheel. Except if you have a mechanical or the like, then
> you'd have to have someone bring you back to Lance. But
> barring that, if you just sit on Lance's wheel, why do
> you need a good team in the mountains? What else am I
> missing? (Obviously, at some time, you're going to have
> to pass Lance, but that's up to you and not your team --
> or is it?)

You need someone to fetch fuel for your corp.

Dave

Per ElmsäTer

Bob in CT wrote:
> It seems to me that you could just sit on Lance's rear
> wheel. Except if you have a mechanical or the like, then
> you'd have to have someone bring you back to Lance. But
> barring that, if you just sit on Lance's wheel, why do
> you need a good team in the mountains? What else am I
> missing? (Obviously, at some time, you're going to have
> to pass Lance, but that's up to you and not your team --
> or is it?)

It doesn't hurt to have a strong team to get you to the
mountains in one piece, fresh and eager to go. I recall
Lance doing a lot of wheel sitting on Jan last year.

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

Jiyang Chen

"Bob in CT" <ctviggen.x@adelphia.net> wrote in message
newspsavzigua6snke8@news.snet.sbcglobal.net...
> It seems to me that you could just sit on Lance's rear
> wheel. Except
if
> you have a mechanical or the like, then you'd have to
> have someone
bring
> you back to Lance. But barring that, if you just sit
> on Lance's
wheel,
> why do you need a good team in the mountains? What else am
> I missing? (Obviously, at some time, you're going to have
> to pass Lance, but
that's
> up to you and not your team -- or is it?)
>
> --
> Bob in CT Remove ".x" to reply

To set a tempo that's comfortable for you.

Carl Sundquist

"Per Elmsäter" <perDOTelmsater@telia.com> wrote in message
news:b5DHc.4670$dx3.37217@newsb.telia.net...
> Bob in CT wrote:
> > It seems to me that you could just sit on Lance's rear
> > wheel. Except if you have a mechanical or the like, then
> > you'd have to have someone bring you back to Lance. But
> > barring that, if you just sit on Lance's wheel, why do
> > you need a good team in the mountains? What else am I
> > missing? (Obviously, at some time, you're going to have
> > to pass Lance, but that's up to you and not your team --
> > or is it?)
>
> It doesn't hurt to have a strong team to get you to the
> mountains in one piece, fresh and eager to go. I recall
> Lance doing a lot of wheel sitting on Jan last year.
>

You have the option to only follow wheels if you are in the
lead. The GC riders are not necessarily the absolute best
climbers on the team. If you need to make time in the
mountains, teammates can help by setting tempo and to a
lesser extent, giving you someone to draft.

Remove The Poli

the steeper the slope the less that drafting gives you hope
because effort spent overcoming wind resistance varies
inversely with steepness as a % of total effort

I know, as does only a true bucket of lard who cannot cope

Dan Connelly

remove the polite word to reply wrote:
> the steeper the slope the less that drafting gives you
> hope because effort spent overcoming wind resistance
> varies inversely with steepness as a % of total effort
>
> I know, as does only a true bucket of lard who cannot cope

Not quite.....

Consider "effective grade" equals the sum of grade and
coefficient of rolling resistance. Then, in the steep limit,
speed is inversely proportional to effective grade. The
standard model is that wind resistance force is proportional
to speed squared, and therefore power dissipated to wind
resistance is proportional to speed cubed, or inversely
proportional to effective grade cubed.

A more complete model recognizes, for no wind:

1 = (v/v0)^3 + geff v/vclimb

vclimb is the max vertical climb rate, geff is the effective
grade, v0 is the max speed w/ geff = 0. (this is a nice form
of the power-speed eqn, as it involves easily estimatable
quantities)

This cubic equation, for significant hills, can be
iteratively solved fairly easily:

v (next iteration) = (1 - (v/v0)^3) (vclimb/geff) (previous
iteration)

With an initial guess v = 0.

Dan

Per ElmsäTer

Dan Connelly wrote:
> remove the polite word to reply wrote:
>> the steeper the slope the less that drafting gives you
>> hope because effort spent overcoming wind resistance
>> varies inversely with steepness as a % of total effort
>>
>> I know, as does only a true bucket of lard who
>> cannot cope
>
> Not quite.....
>
> Consider "effective grade" equals the sum of grade and
> coefficient of rolling resistance. Then, in the steep
> limit, speed is inversely proportional to effective grade.
> The standard model is that wind resistance force is
> proportional to speed squared, and therefore power
> dissipated to wind resistance is proportional to speed
> cubed, or inversely proportional to effective grade cubed.
>
> A more complete model recognizes, for no wind:
>
> 1 = (v/v0)^3 + geff v/vclimb
>
> vclimb is the max vertical climb rate, geff is the
> effective grade, v0 is the max speed w/ geff = 0. (this is
> a nice form of the power-speed eqn, as it involves easily
> estimatable quantities)
>
> This cubic equation, for significant hills, can be
> iteratively solved fairly easily:
>
> v (next iteration) = (1 - (v/v0)^3) (vclimb/geff)
> (previous iteration)
>
> With an initial guess v = 0.
>
> Dan

Very interesting. How about a translation into english. Like
at what speed there is no sense in drafting at for instance
5%,10% and 15% grade

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

Steven L. Sheff

On 07/10/2004 03:43 AM, in article PSOHc.4695$dx3.37479@newsb.telia.net,
"Per Elmsäter" <perDOTelmsater@telia.com> wrote:

> Dan Connelly wrote:
>> remove the polite word to reply wrote:
>>> the steeper the slope the less that drafting gives you
>>> hope because effort spent overcoming wind resistance
>>> varies inversely with steepness as a % of total effort
>>>
>>> I know, as does only a true bucket of lard who
>>> cannot cope
>>
>> Not quite.....
>>
>> Consider "effective grade" equals the sum of grade and
>> coefficient of rolling resistance. Then, in the steep
>> limit, speed is inversely proportional to effective
>> grade. The standard model is that wind resistance
>> force is proportional to speed squared, and therefore
>> power dissipated to wind resistance is proportional to
>> speed cubed, or inversely proportional to effective
>> grade cubed.
>>
>> A more complete model recognizes, for no wind:
>>
>> 1 = (v/v0)^3 + geff v/vclimb
>>
>> vclimb is the max vertical climb rate, geff is the
>> effective grade, v0 is the max speed w/ geff = 0. (this
>> is a nice form of the power-speed eqn, as it involves
>> easily estimatable quantities)
>>
>> This cubic equation, for significant hills, can be
>> iteratively solved fairly easily:
>>
>> v (next iteration) = (1 - (v/v0)^3) (vclimb/geff)
>> (previous iteration)
>>
>> With an initial guess v = 0.
>>
>> Dan
>
> Very interesting. How about a translation into english.
> Like at what speed there is no sense in drafting at for
> instance 5%,10% and 15% grade

All physics aside, I always climb faster when I'm sitting on
someone's wheel than when I'm alone.

None of Connelly's calculations take the psychological
effect of drafting into account.

--
Steven L. Sheffield stevens at veloworks dot com veloworks
at worldnet dot ay tea tee dot net bellum pax est libertas
servitus est ignoratio vis est ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee
sea aye tee why you ti ay aitch aitch tee tea pea colon [for
word] slash [four ward] slash double-you double-yew double-
ewe dot veloworks dot com [four word] slash

Raptor

Bob in CT wrote:
> It seems to me that you could just sit on Lance's rear
> wheel. Except if you have a mechanical or the like, then
> you'd have to have someone bring you back to Lance. But
> barring that, if you just sit on Lance's wheel, why do
> you need a good team in the mountains? What else am I
> missing? (Obviously, at some time, you're going to have
> to pass Lance, but that's up to you and not your team --
> or is it?)
>

You have to be in contact with the leaders, and fresh
enough, to hope to stick with LANCE. That's where the team
really helps. Once you have the lead, your team needs to
control the race because you ain't gonna do it on your own.

In addition, those animals are climbing those Alpe du Huez
at an incredible 15 mph or so, which is on the verge of
drafting being very helpful.

It doesn't matter. LANCE has a slightly higher power-to-
weight ratio than his major rivals, on certain slopes, and
knows exactly when he can use it to break away.

--
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall
"We should not march into Baghdad. ... Assigning young soldiers to
a fruitless hunt for a securely entrenched dictator and condemning
them to fight in what would be an unwinnable urban guerilla war, it
could only plunge that part of the world into ever greater
instability." George Bush Sr. in his 1998 book "A World Transformed"

Benjamin Weiner

drcaggianoplease@hotmail.com (remove the polite word to reply) wrote:

> the steeper the slope the less that drafting gives you
> hope because effort spent overcoming wind resistance
> varies inversely with steepness as a % of total effort
>
> I know, as does only a true bucket of lard who cannot cope

Riders in the TDF go up climbs faster than fatasses like you
or me. Wind at high elevations can also be significant.
Drafting and psychological pacing aren't the only reasons,
though. Teammates can set a tempo that the leader is
comfortable with but high enough to make attacking
difficult. And it is never a good thing to be isolated
before the final climb or finish, teammates can do the work
and keep the GC rider fresh.

An example is in this year's Giro when Sergei Honchar was
isolated with Simoni and Garzelli up the road and had to set
pace at the front to protect his 2nd on GC.

An even better example is from last year's Vuelta, on the
stage to Collado Villalba that had several climbs and
finished on the flat. USPS put Floyd Landis in a break.
Isidro Nozal had the jersey but was visibly weakening on
the climb. Heras attacked on the last climb and dropped
Nozal and Igor G de G. He got up to Landis, a group formed
after the descent, and Floyd hammered until the finish
(IIRC there were also several Kelmes working in the lead
group). They put a bit over a minute into Nozal - not a
lot, but without Floyd there, Heras couldn't have won the
Vuelta the next day.

Tactics like this make bike racing more than a comparison of
powermeter readouts. BTW, there are a couple of stages like
that in this year's Tour. So yeah, it helps to have a good
team in the mountains.

Ben apologies if this shows up more than once, my
newsserver is fubar

Trg

"Benjamin Weiner" <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org> a écrit dans le message de
news:d3d44363.0407120011.3d30c28e@posting.google.com...
> drcaggianoplease@hotmail.com (remove the polite word to
> reply) wrote:
>
> > the steeper the slope the less that drafting gives you
> > hope because effort spent overcoming wind resistance
> > varies inversely with steepness as a % of total effort
> >
> > I know, as does only a true bucket of lard who
> > cannot cope
>
> Riders in the TDF go up climbs faster than fatasses like
> you or me. Wind at high elevations can also be
> significant. Drafting and psychological pacing aren't the
> only reasons, though. Teammates can set a tempo that the
> leader is comfortable with but high enough to make
> attacking difficult. And it is never a good thing to be
> isolated before the final climb or finish, teammates can
> do the work and keep the GC rider fresh.
>
> An example is in this year's Giro when Sergei Honchar was
> isolated with Simoni and Garzelli up the road and had to
> set pace at the front to protect his 2nd on GC.
>
> An even better example is from last year's Vuelta, on the
> stage to Collado Villalba that had several climbs and
> finished on the flat. USPS put Floyd Landis in a break.
> Isidro Nozal had the jersey but was visibly weakening on
> the climb. Heras attacked on the last climb and dropped
> Nozal and Igor G de G. He got up to Landis, a group formed
> after the descent, and Floyd hammered until the finish
> (IIRC there were also several Kelmes working in the lead
> group). They put a bit over a minute into Nozal - not a
> lot, but without Floyd there, Heras couldn't have won the
> Vuelta the next day.
>
> Tactics like this make bike racing more than a comparison
> of powermeter readouts. BTW, there are a couple of stages
> like that in this year's Tour. So yeah, it helps to have a
> good team in the mountains.
>
>
>
> Ben apologies if this shows up more than once, my
> newsserver is fubar

Excellent post! IMO, Phonak is going to have to be able do
this to USPS if Tyler hopes to be able to win. They may be
the one team able to put USPS in some difficulties. It'll be
interesting to see if they (or CSC) try to get someone in a
break on stage 10.

Amh

Bob in CT <ctviggen.x@adelphia.net> wrote in message news:<opsavzigua6snke8@news.snet.sbcglobal.net>...
> It seems to me that you could just sit on Lance's rear
> wheel. Except if you have a mechanical or the like, then
> you'd have to have someone bring you back to Lance. But
> barring that, if you just sit on Lance's wheel, why do
> you need a good team in the mountains? What else am I
> missing? (Obviously, at some time, you're going to have
> to pass Lance, but that's up to you and not your team --
> or is it?)

It does help, but not absolutely required. The big help is
keeping the tempo fast enough to limit escapes by others who
might be you main competition. Otherwise you'd have to chase
down any escape that has one of your main rivals in it.

Andy