TTT rules silliness

Dan Connelly

Here's the rules on CN:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/200...d=stages/stage4

The official page lists the rules here:
http://www.letour.com/2004/us/index.html

A r t i c l e 2 4 - Team time trials Teams start their team
time trial at 5 minute intervals in the reverse order of the
team ranking established following the 3rd stage. [...] The
stage ranking is established for each of the teams based on
the finishing time of the 5th rider in each team (to the
nearest hundredth of a second). An identical time is given
to all teammates who arrive within this same time, even if
they actually finish quicker. The procedure for establishing
the general individual time ranking is as follows: Times for
all riders are calculated according to the gap between them
and the 5th man of the winning team (scratch time). If this
gap is less than that given in the table below, then the
actual time recorded by the timekeepers will be taken. If
the gap is more than that given in the table below, then the
rider will receive the time of the winning team plus the
additional number of seconds indicated in the table below
according to the place of their team.[...] Riders who arrive
on their own after the 5th rider in their team will be
credited for the general ranking with the actual time they
took to complete the stage. However, riders finishing
outside of the permitted finishing times (coefficient 6)
will be disqualified. As far as the general team ranking is
concerned, the actual time of the 5th man in each team will
be the time recorded for this ranking. [...]

The cited table is missing. However, CN claims it is 10
seconds per place to 15th, 5 seconds per place after that.

This needs serious work. Consider the following:

Team A: 70:00 (all riders A0-A8) Team B: 75:00 (riders
B0-7) Team B: 75:01 (rider B8) Team C: 80 minutes (all
riders C0-C8)

Individual GC from this stage: A0-A8: 70:00 B0-B7: @ :10
C0-C8: @ :20
B8 : @ 5:01

Huh? The guy finishes 1 second back from his team, and loses
5 minutes as a result? Mind the gaps, guys.

This is an extreme example. However, it could easily occur
that a 1 second gap results in losses of more than a minute.

For 2005 an additional rule is needed -- no rider can lose
more time relative to his team time than the actual
difference in time between the rider and the team.

But this is really too complicated. If they want to cap the
time gaps, do a numerical transform on the times. Calculate
times the old fashion way. The winning team gets its time.
For the remaining teams, a transformed time gap dt' is
calculated from the actual time gap dt, as follows:

exp[2 dt/t0] - 1
dt' = -------------------- t0
exp[2 dt/t0] + 1

with t0 = 2.5 minutes, for example.

This would yield the following conversion:

dt dt'
(s) (s)0 1 1 5 5 10 10 20 20 30 30 60 57 120 100 180 125
240 138 300 145 600 150

Too complicated? Hardly, compared to the existing rules. One
step. Go faster, score better. That's not so complicated.

Dan

Vernon

A rider can't lose 5 minutes, the max time loss is 2:30....
I know, still a bunch....

"Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@i_e_e_e.o_r_g> wrote in
message
news:IESGc.7529$OJ.3174@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com...
> Here's the rules on CN: http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2-
> 004/tour04/?id=stages/stage4
>
> The official page lists the rules here:
> http://www.letour.com/2004/us/index.html
>
> A r t i c l e 2 4 - Team time trials Teams start their
> team time trial at 5 minute intervals in the reverse
order of the team ranking established following the 3rd
stage. [...]
> The stage ranking is established for each of the teams
> based on the
finishing time of the 5th rider in each team (to the nearest
hundredth of a second). An identical time is given to all
teammates who arrive within this same time, even if they
actually finish
> quicker. The procedure for establishing the general
> individual time ranking is as
follows: Times for all riders are calculated according to
the gap between them and the 5th man of the winning team
(scratch time).
> If this gap is less than that given in the table below,
> then the actual
time recorded by the timekeepers will be taken.
> If the gap is more than that given in the table below,
> then the rider will
receive the time of the winning team plus the additional
number of seconds indicated in the table below according to
the place of their team.[...]
> Riders who arrive on their own after the 5th rider in
> their team will be
credited for the general ranking with the actual time they
took to complete the stage.
> However, riders finishing outside of the permitted
> finishing times
(coefficient 6) will be disqualified.
> As far as the general team ranking is concerned, the
> actual time of the
5th man in each team will be the time recorded for this
ranking. [...]
>
> The cited table is missing. However, CN claims it is 10
> seconds per place
to 15th, 5 seconds per place after that.
>
> This needs serious work. Consider the following:
>
> Team A: 70:00 (all riders A0-A8) Team B: 75:00 (riders
> B0-7) Team B: 75:01 (rider B8) Team C: 80 minutes (all
> riders C0-C8)
>
> Individual GC from this stage: A0-A8: 70:00 B0-B7: @ :10
> C0-C8: @ :20
> B8 : @ 5:01
>
> Huh? The guy finishes 1 second back from his team, and
> loses 5 minutes as a result? Mind the gaps, guys.
>
> This is an extreme example. However, it could easily occur
> that a 1
second
> gap results in losses of more than a minute.
>
> For 2005 an additional rule is needed -- no rider can lose
> more time
relative to
> his team time than the actual difference in time between
> the rider and the
team.
>
> But this is really too complicated. If they want to cap
> the time gaps, do a numerical transform on the times.
> Calculate times the old fashion way. The winning team gets
> its time. For the remaining teams, a transformed
time
> gap dt' is calculated from the actual time gap dt, as
> follows:
>
> exp[2 dt/t0] - 1
> dt' = -------------------- t0
> exp[2 dt/t0] + 1
>
> with t0 = 2.5 minutes, for example.
>
> This would yield the following conversion:
>
> dt dt'
> (s) (s)0 1 1 5 5 10 10 20 20 30 30 60 57 120 100 180
> 125 240 138 300 145 600 150
>
> Too complicated? Hardly, compared to the existing rules.
> One step. Go
faster, score better.
> That's not so complicated.
>
> Dan

Vernon

Im sorry, I owe a correction. Its that the Team can't
lose more than
3:00min. Lagging riders can lose as much as much time as
they fall behind. Hang onto that wheel ahead of you right?

"vernon" <vern18544@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:9Y-
SGc.7519$R36.2527@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> A rider can't lose 5 minutes, the max time loss is
> 2:30.... I know, still
a
> bunch....
>
> "Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@i_e_e_e.o_r_g> wrote in
> message
> news:IESGc.7529$OJ.3174@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com...
> > Here's the rules on CN: http://www.cyclingnews.com/road-
> > /2004/tour04/?id=stages/stage4
> >
> > The official page lists the rules here:
> > http://www.letour.com/2004/us/index.html
> >
> > A r t i c l e 2 4 - Team time trials Teams start their
> > team time trial at 5 minute intervals in the reverse
> order of the team ranking established following the 3rd
> stage. [...]
> > The stage ranking is established for each of the teams
> > based on the
> finishing time of the 5th rider in each team (to the
> nearest hundredth of
a
> second). An identical time is given to all teammates who
> arrive within
this
> same time, even if they actually finish
> > quicker. The procedure for establishing the general
> > individual time ranking is as
> follows: Times for all riders are calculated according to
> the gap between them and the 5th man of the winning team
> (scratch time).
> > If this gap is less than that given in the table below,
> > then the actual
> time recorded by the timekeepers will be taken.
> > If the gap is more than that given in the table below,
> > then the rider
will
> receive the time of the winning team plus the additional
> number of seconds indicated in the table below according
> to the place of their team.[...]
> > Riders who arrive on their own after the 5th rider in
> > their team will be
> credited for the general ranking with the actual time
> they took to
complete
> the stage.
> > However, riders finishing outside of the permitted
> > finishing times
> (coefficient 6) will be disqualified.
> > As far as the general team ranking is concerned, the
> > actual time of the
> 5th man in each team will be the time recorded for this
> ranking. [...]
> >
> > The cited table is missing. However, CN claims it is 10
> > seconds per
place
> to 15th, 5 seconds per place after that.
> >
> > This needs serious work. Consider the following:
> >
> > Team A: 70:00 (all riders A0-A8) Team B: 75:00 (riders
> > B0-7) Team B: 75:01 (rider B8) Team C: 80 minutes (all
> > riders C0-C8)
> >
> > Individual GC from this stage: A0-A8: 70:00 B0-B7: @ :10
> > C0-C8: @ :20
> > B8 : @ 5:01
> >
> > Huh? The guy finishes 1 second back from his team, and
> > loses 5 minutes as a result? Mind the gaps, guys.
> >
> > This is an extreme example. However, it could easily
> > occur that a 1
> second
> > gap results in losses of more than a minute.
> >
> > For 2005 an additional rule is needed -- no rider can
> > lose more time
> relative to
> > his team time than the actual difference in time between
> > the rider and
the
> team.
> >
> > But this is really too complicated. If they want to cap
> > the time gaps,
do
> > a numerical transform on the times. Calculate times the
> > old fashion
way.
> > The winning team gets its time. For the remaining teams,
> > a transformed
> time
> > gap dt' is calculated from the actual time gap dt, as
> > follows:
> >
> > exp[2 dt/t0] - 1
> > dt' = -------------------- t0
> > exp[2 dt/t0] + 1
> >
> > with t0 = 2.5 minutes, for example.
> >
> > This would yield the following conversion:
> >
> > dt dt'
> > (s) (s)0 1 1 5 5 10 10 20 20 30 30 60 57 120 100 180
> > 125 240 138 300 145 600 150
> >
> > Too complicated? Hardly, compared to the existing rules.
> > One step.
Go
> faster, score better.
> > That's not so complicated.
> >
> > Dan
> >
> >
>

Tom Nakashima

"Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@i_e_e_e.o_r_g> wrote in message
news:IESGc.7529$OJ.3174@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com...
> Here's the rules on CN: http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2-
> 004/tour04/?id=stages/stage4
>
> The official page lists the rules here:
> http://www.letour.com/2004/us/index.html
>
> A r t i c l e 2 4 - Team time trials Teams start their
> team time trial at 5 minute intervals in the reverse
order of the team ranking established following the 3rd
stage. [...]
> The stage ranking is established for each of the teams
> based on the
finishing time of the 5th rider in each team (to the nearest
hundredth of a second). An identical time is given to all
teammates who arrive within this same time, even if they
actually finish
> quicker. The procedure for establishing the general
> individual time ranking is as
follows: Times for all riders are calculated according to
the gap between them and the 5th man of the winning team
(scratch time).
> If this gap is less than that given in the table below,
> then the actual
time recorded by the timekeepers will be taken.
> If the gap is more than that given in the table below,
> then the rider will
receive the time of the winning team plus the additional
number of seconds indicated in the table below according to
the place of their team.[...]
> Riders who arrive on their own after the 5th rider in
> their team will be
credited for the general ranking with the actual time they
took to complete the stage.
> However, riders finishing outside of the permitted
> finishing times
(coefficient 6) will be disqualified.
> As far as the general team ranking is concerned, the
> actual time of the
5th man in each team will be the time recorded for this
ranking. [...]
>
> The cited table is missing. However, CN claims it is 10
> seconds per place
to 15th, 5 seconds per place after that.
>
> This needs serious work. Consider the following:
>
> Team A: 70:00 (all riders A0-A8) Team B: 75:00 (riders
> B0-7) Team B: 75:01 (rider B8) Team C: 80 minutes (all
> riders C0-C8)
>
> Individual GC from this stage: A0-A8: 70:00 B0-B7: @ :10
> C0-C8: @ :20
> B8 : @ 5:01
>
> Huh? The guy finishes 1 second back from his team, and
> loses 5 minutes as a result? Mind the gaps, guys.
>
> This is an extreme example. However, it could easily occur
> that a 1
second
> gap results in losses of more than a minute.
>
> For 2005 an additional rule is needed -- no rider can lose
> more time
relative to
> his team time than the actual difference in time between
> the rider and the
team.
>
> But this is really too complicated. If they want to cap
> the time gaps, do a numerical transform on the times.
> Calculate times the old fashion way. The winning team gets
> its time. For the remaining teams, a transformed
time
> gap dt' is calculated from the actual time gap dt, as
> follows:
>
> exp[2 dt/t0] - 1
> dt' = -------------------- t0
> exp[2 dt/t0] + 1
>
> with t0 = 2.5 minutes, for example.
>
> This would yield the following conversion:
>
> dt dt'
> (s) (s)0 1 1 5 5 10 10 20 20 30 30 60 57 120 100 180
> 125 240 138 300 145 600 150
>
> Too complicated? Hardly, compared to the existing rules.
> One step. Go
faster, score better.
> That's not so complicated.
>
> Dan
>
Hard to digest, but a good breakdown of the TTT. -tom

Dan Connelly

vernon wrote:
> Im sorry, I owe a correction. Its that the Team can't lose
> more than
> 3:00min. Lagging riders can lose as much as much time as
> they fall behind. Hang onto that wheel ahead of you
> right?
>

Right. But silly. It's common for riders to take suicide
pulls in the final few km. Should the result be a 5 minute
GC penalty? Silly.

Postal can blow away Telekom by several minutes, but Landis
punctures in the final km and rides it home coming in 10
seconds after his teammates, only to finish minutes behind
the Telekom riders in GC.

Geesh -- didn't they think this through?

Dan

Bart Van Hooreb

and Simoni went down with 2 turns to go, and they
didnt wait.

Curt

These rules certainly don't help USP, but I sort of like
them in a way. USP is too tough and they needed to do
something to level the playing field. This gives Jan and
others a chance to stay in the race to make it close, so the
fans can enjoy the race more.

Respectfully, Curt

"Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@i_e_e_e.o_r_g> wrote in
message
news:IESGc.7529$OJ.3174@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com...
> Here's the rules on CN: http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2-
> 004/tour04/?id=stages/stage4
>
> The official page lists the rules here:
> http://www.letour.com/2004/us/index.html
>
> A r t i c l e 2 4 - Team time trials Teams start their
> team time trial at 5 minute intervals in the reverse
order of the team ranking established following the 3rd
stage. [...]
> The stage ranking is established for each of the teams
> based on the
finishing time of the 5th rider in each team (to the nearest
hundredth of a second). An identical time is given to all
teammates who arrive within this same time, even if they
actually finish
> quicker. The procedure for establishing the general
> individual time ranking is as
follows: Times for all riders are calculated according to
the gap between them and the 5th man of the winning team
(scratch time).
> If this gap is less than that given in the table below,
> then the actual
time recorded by the timekeepers will be taken.
> If the gap is more than that given in the table below,
> then the rider will
receive the time of the winning team plus the additional
number of seconds indicated in the table below according to
the place of their team.[...]
> Riders who arrive on their own after the 5th rider in
> their team will be
credited for the general ranking with the actual time they
took to complete the stage.
> However, riders finishing outside of the permitted
> finishing times
(coefficient 6) will be disqualified.
> As far as the general team ranking is concerned, the
> actual time of the
5th man in each team will be the time recorded for this
ranking. [...]
>
> The cited table is missing. However, CN claims it is 10
> seconds per place
to 15th, 5 seconds per place after that.
>
> This needs serious work. Consider the following:
>
> Team A: 70:00 (all riders A0-A8) Team B: 75:00 (riders
> B0-7) Team B: 75:01 (rider B8) Team C: 80 minutes (all
> riders C0-C8)
>
> Individual GC from this stage: A0-A8: 70:00 B0-B7: @ :10
> C0-C8: @ :20
> B8 : @ 5:01
>
> Huh? The guy finishes 1 second back from his team, and
> loses 5 minutes as a result? Mind the gaps, guys.
>
> This is an extreme example. However, it could easily occur
> that a 1
second
> gap results in losses of more than a minute.
>
> For 2005 an additional rule is needed -- no rider can lose
> more time
relative to
> his team time than the actual difference in time between
> the rider and the
team.
>
> But this is really too complicated. If they want to cap
> the time gaps, do a numerical transform on the times.
> Calculate times the old fashion way. The winning team gets
> its time. For the remaining teams, a transformed
time
> gap dt' is calculated from the actual time gap dt, as
> follows:
>
> exp[2 dt/t0] - 1
> dt' = -------------------- t0
> exp[2 dt/t0] + 1
>
> with t0 = 2.5 minutes, for example.
>
> This would yield the following conversion:
>
> dt dt'
> (s) (s)0 1 1 5 5 10 10 20 20 30 30 60 57 120 100 180
> 125 240 138 300 145 600 150
>
> Too complicated? Hardly, compared to the existing rules.
> One step. Go
faster, score better.
> That's not so complicated.
>
> Dan

Dan Connelly

curt wrote:
> These rules certainly don't help USP, but I sort of like
> them in a way. USP is too tough and they needed to do
> something to level the playing field. This gives Jan and
> others a chance to stay in the race to make it close, so
> the fans can enjoy the race more.
>
> Respectfully, Curt
>

I agree with Curt the TTT needs some damping. But the
current approach as irrationalities. The simple fix I first
suggested, that individual times are relative to the team
rather than absolute, would help a lot.

But even then there are irrationalities. An example:

Results from http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/tour04/?i-
d=results/stage4 1 US Postal 1.12.03 1 Phonak 1.07 2 Illes
Balears 1.15 3 T-Mobile 1.19 4 CSC 1.45 5 Rabobank 1.53 6
Liberty Seguros 2.25 7 Euskaltel - Euskadi 2.35 8 Saeco 9
Alessio - Bianchi 2.57 10 Quickstep-Davitamon 3.29

T-Mobile riders lost 20 seconds on Phonak riders because
Postal was first. If Postal had been slower (no more than 10
seconds up on Phonak), T-Mobile'd have lost only 12 seconds
on Phonak riders. Is there a rational basis for this?
Hardly. It's just sort of random.

So a more analytic damping makes more sense to me.

Dan

Bob In Ct

On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 15:49:46 GMT, curt <nospam@verizon.net> wrote:

> These rules certainly don't help USP, but I sort of like
> them in a way. USP is too tough and they needed to do
> something to level the playing field. This gives Jan and
> others a chance to stay in the race to make it close, so
> the fans can enjoy the race more.
>
> Respectfully, Curt
>

Personally, I think they should just ditch the TTT. It just
means that teams with a large amount of money get the best
people. It's interesting to watch, but doesn't add anything
(to me) to the race.

--
Bob in CT Remove ".x" to reply

Trg

"curt" <nospam@verizon.net> a écrit dans le message de
news:uYUGc.35469$MT5.2235@nwrdny01.gnilink.net...
> These rules certainly don't help USP, but I sort of like
> them in a way.
USP
> is too tough and they needed to do something to level the
> playing field. This gives Jan and others a chance to stay
> in the race to make it close,
so
> the fans can enjoy the race more.
>
> Respectfully, Curt

And another thing, they should go up mountains that aren't
so steep. This gives Jan and others a chance to stay in the
race to make it close, so the fans can enjoy the race more.

Alex Rodriguez

In article <opsarytizu6snke8@news.snet.sbcglobal.net>,
ctviggen.x@adelphia.net says...
>
>Personally, I think they should just ditch the TTT. It just
>means that teams with a large amount of money get the best
>people. It's interesting to watch, but doesn't add anything
>(to me) to the race.

They already tried that a few years back.
-------------
Alex

Ilan Vardi

Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@i_e_e_e.o_r_g> wrote in message news:<IESGc.7529$OJ.3174@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com>...

>
> Huh? The guy finishes 1 second back from his team, and
> loses 5 minutes

Great nerds think alike.

-ilan

Curt

"Bob in CT" <ctviggen.x@adelphia.net> wrote in message
newspsarytizu6snke8@news.snet.sbcglobal.net...
> On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 15:49:46 GMT, curt
> <nospam@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > These rules certainly don't help USP, but I sort of like
> > them in a way. USP is too tough and they needed to do
> > something to level the playing field. This gives Jan and
> > others a chance to stay in the race to make it close, so
> > the fans can enjoy the race more.
> >
> > Respectfully, Curt
> >
>
> Personally, I think they should just ditch the TTT. It
> just means that teams with a large amount of money get the
> best people. It's interesting to watch, but doesn't add
> anything (to me) to the race.
>
>
> --
> Bob in CT Remove ".x" to reply

I think the TTT is a good thing for the race. It help make
people realize how important a good team is. There is no way
any rider can win the TdF by himself these days. It takes a
team to work together for one captain. It isn't an
individual sport really and the TTT helps people realize
that fact. I enjoy them, but can also see your point.

Curt

Bob In Ct

On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 21:36:56 GMT, curt <nospam@verizon.net> wrote:

>
> "Bob in CT" <ctviggen.x@adelphia.net> wrote in message
> newspsarytizu6snke8@news.snet.sbcglobal.net...
>> On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 15:49:46 GMT, curt
>> <nospam@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>> > These rules certainly don't help USP, but I sort of
>> > like them in a
>> way.
>> > USP is too tough and they needed to do something to
>> > level the playing
>> field.
>> > This gives Jan and others a chance to stay in the race
>> > to make it
>> close,
>> > so the fans can enjoy the race more.
>> >
>> > Respectfully, Curt
>> >
>>
>> Personally, I think they should just ditch the TTT. It
>> just means that teams with a large amount of money get
>> the best people. It's interesting to watch, but doesn't
>> add anything (to me) to the race.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Bob in CT Remove ".x" to reply
>
> I think the TTT is a good thing for the race. It help make
> people realize how important a good team is. There is no
> way any rider can win the TdF by himself these days. It
> takes a team to work together for one captain. It isn't an
> individual sport really and the TTT helps people realize
> that fact. I enjoy them, but can also see your point.
>
> Curt
>
>

It's definitely a team sport. Look at yesterday, when US
Postal just cranked through the cobblestone sections and
Mayo's team couldn't catch up (though I'm not sure how many
teams could, as fast as US Postal was going -- they even
split the main field).

--
Bob in CT Remove ".x" to reply