experiences with shimano PD-M647 pedal?

Monique Y. Muda

< http://bike.shimano.com/Footwear_Pe...tnumber=PD-M647 >

This is a clipless pedal with platform. I've heard good
things about it from some folks, but don't see much opinion
online ... anyone used this specific model and have an
opinion? They're damn expensive, but if they work (let me be
clipped in when I want to be; give me some traction when I
want more freedom), maybe they're worth it ...

Also, how does one use the platform? In my regular clipless,
I have to contact with my arches to avoid clipping in. Is
there some magic trick to these guys that allows you to use
the ball of your foot?

--
monique

Bomba

On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 13:57:02 -0600, Monique Y. Mudama wrote:

> <ootwear_Pedals/Pedals/componenttemplate.asp?partnumber=PD-
> M647 >
>
> This is a clipless pedal with platform. I've heard good
> things about it from some folks, but don't see much
> opinion online ... anyone used this specific model and
> have an opinion? They're damn expensive, but if they
> work (let me be clipped in when I want to be; give me
> some traction when I want more freedom), maybe they're
> worth it ...

I bought the first incarnation of these pedals (PD-M636),
back in the day when I used to race DH. As far as I can
tell, there's not much changed apart from the shape of
the cage. I loved them and ran them for years even on the
XC bikes. The cage gives support to a softer soled shoe
and allows you to jam on the pedals on those annoying
steep hills where you stall halfway up and have to start
again. Less importantly, it allows you to hang a foot out
on the bends and then jump straight on the power out the
other side.

On the downside, they are pretty much the heaviest pedals
out there and you'll probably have to carve up the soles of
your shoes to get them to engage properly.

> Also, how does one use the platform? In my regular
> clipless, I have to contact with my arches to avoid
> clipping in. Is there some magic trick to these guys that
> allows you to use the ball of your foot?

The pedals require that you point your toe downwards
slightly and clip in from the front and step down (kind of
like a ski binding). If you just place your foot flat on the
pedal, you shouldn't engage.

Pas

Monique Y. Mudama wrote:
> <
>
/Footwear_Pedals/Pedals/componenttemplate.asp?partnumber=PD-
M647
> >
>
> This is a clipless pedal with platform. I've heard good
> things about it from some folks, but don't see much
> opinion online ... anyone used this specific model and
> have an opinion? They're damn expensive, but if they
> work (let me be clipped in when I want to be; give me
> some traction when I want more freedom), maybe they're
> worth it ...
>
> Also, how does one use the platform? In my regular
> clipless, I have to contact with my arches to avoid
> clipping in. Is there some magic trick to these guys that
> allows you to use the ball of your foot?

just clip in. Give into it!! What's your big fear?

penny

Monique Y. Muda

On 2004-07-06, bomba penned:
>
> I bought the first incarnation of these pedals (PD-M636),
> back in the day when I used to race DH. As far as I can
> tell, there's not much changed apart from the shape of
> the cage. I loved them and ran them for years even on the
> XC bikes. The cage gives support to a softer soled shoe
> and allows you to jam on the pedals on those annoying
> steep hills where you stall halfway up and have to start
> again. Less importantly, it allows you to hang a foot out
> on the bends and then jump straight on the power out the
> other side.
>
> On the downside, they are pretty much the heaviest pedals
> out there and you'll probably have to carve up the soles
> of your shoes to get them to engage properly.

Heavy, shmeavy. 150g more than my 515s isn't going to kill
me. Carving up the sole of my shoe, though? Is this because
the clip-in mechanism is recessed?

I gotta ask the obvious question: if you loved 'em, why did
you leave 'em?

>> Also, how does one use the platform? In my regular
>> clipless, I have to contact with my arches to avoid
>> clipping in. Is there some magic trick to these guys that
>> allows you to use the ball of your foot?
>
> The pedals require that you point your toe downwards
> slightly and clip in from the front and step down (kind of
> like a ski binding). If you just place your foot flat on
> the pedal, you shouldn't engage.

Ah. Is there a similar trick to getting out, or is that part
straight forward?

I read somewhere that the 647 is based on the 959 pedal, and
apparently they don't work with multi-release cleats. Hrmmm.
Another data point.

--
monique

Monique Y. Muda

On 2004-07-06, pas penned:
>
> just clip in. Give into it!! What's your big fear?

Falling. Duh.

Just as an example, I endo'd this weekend. I was out of my
pedals, so when my bike started tipping, my feet slid
forward and I was able to keep myself from flipping
forward. If I had had my feet clipped in, I would have gone
head-first into either rocks or the tree in front of me.
And no, clipping in would not have magically kept me from
falling. I'm sure better technique would have, but that
didn't happen.

Yes, great, I should "just do it." But right now, while I'm
able to force myself to stay in the pedals for harder and
harder stuff, there is plenty out there where I just won't
do it. Not yet. And for that stuff, I want better support
than that slippery metal widget provides. As Buffy would
say, What's the big?

--
monique

Bomba

On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 14:48:35 -0600, Monique Y. Mudama wrote:

>> On the downside, they are pretty much the heaviest pedals
>> out there and you'll probably have to carve up the soles
>> of your shoes to get them to engage properly.
>
> Heavy, shmeavy. 150g more than my 515s isn't going to
> kill me.

Just scanned down the page - they run with a resin body now
rather than the huge lump of alu that used to be attached.
522g isn't bad at all.

> Carving up the sole of my shoe, though? Is this because
> the clip-in mechanism is recessed?

The clip-in mechanism isn't really recessed, the problem is
more the fact that the cleat is recessed in the sole. I had
to trim down the sides of the sole to get the cleat to
protrude enough to engage properly.

> I gotta ask the obvious question: if you loved 'em, why
> did you leave 'em?

Several reasons really. The first being that they were about
7 or 8 years old and knackered. One side had more float than
the other and released at a different angle depending on
which side of the pedal you clipped in (this was due to age
and wear and tear rather than a 'feature'). When it came to
buying new pedals, I felt I didn't need a platform any
longer - I no longer race DH or need to get on the power
urgently after hanging out feet on the corners and I ride
everything now clipped-in with no worries. I'd heard good
things about Egg Beaters, their function and their mud and
snow-shedding abilities (another thing the M636 didn't do
well, and important where I ride), so went with those. I
miss the platform occasionally on stalled uphills, but apart
from that...

Talking of which, you might want to look at the Egg
Beater Mallet.

>> The pedals require that you point your toe downwards
>> slightly and clip in from the front and step down (kind
>> of like a ski binding). If you just place your foot flat
>> on the pedal, you shouldn't engage.
>
> Ah. Is there a similar trick to getting out, or is that
> part straight forward?

Same as releasing from any other clipless pedal.

Tj

"Monique Y. Mudama" <spam@bounceswoosh.org> wrote in message
news:slrncem4te.b91.spam@home.bounceswoosh.org...
> On 2004-07-06, pas penned:
> >
> > just clip in. Give into it!! What's your big fear?
>
> Falling. Duh.
>
> Just as an example, I endo'd this weekend. I was out of my
> pedals, so when my bike started tipping, my feet slid
> forward and I was able to keep myself from flipping
> forward. If I had had my feet clipped in, I would have
> gone head-first into either rocks or the tree in front of
> me. And no, clipping in would not have magically kept me
> from falling. I'm sure better technique would have, but
> that didn't happen.
>
> Yes, great, I should "just do it." But right now, while
> I'm able to force myself to stay in the pedals for harder
> and harder stuff, there is plenty out there where I just
> won't do it. Not yet. And for that stuff, I want better
> support than that slippery metal widget provides. As Buffy
> would say, What's the big?
>
>
> --
> monique

Run em with the tension at the lowest possible setting
to get out quickly. After they are broken in it gets
even easier.

TJ

Mattb

Monique Y. Mudama wrote:
> On 2004-07-06, pas penned:
>>
>> just clip in. Give into it!! What's your big fear?
>
> Falling. Duh.
>
> Just as an example, I endo'd this weekend. I was out of my
> pedals, so when my bike started tipping, my feet slid
> forward and I was able to keep myself from flipping
> forward. If I had had my feet clipped in, I would have
> gone head-first into either rocks or the tree in front of
> me. And no, clipping in would not have magically kept me
> from falling. I'm sure better technique would have,
> but that didn't happen.
>

Well, you may think that would have happened, but think
about this: If you had been clipped in, chances are your
weight would have been further back. That could have
prevented the whole incident. Most of the
beginner/intermediate endos I've witnessed have been at
least partially caused by the rider not having their feet on
the pedals (or too far forward on them). The worst ones are
when the rider tried to walk down something steep while
straddling the bike. Bad!

> Yes, great, I should "just do it." But right now, while
> I'm able to force myself to stay in the pedals for harder
> and harder stuff, there is plenty out there where I just
> won't do it. Not yet. And for that stuff, I want better
> support than that slippery metal widget provides. As Buffy
> would say, What's the big?

Have you ever gone OTB while clipped in? I've come out of
my pedals every single time (without trying). It seems
the vast majority of being-in-the-pedal-induced falls are
to the side.

Also, if you must get new pedals with platforms, look into
the Time Z pedals. I believe Carla has some and really likes
them. I'd get some, but I don't need no stinkin' platforms!
(I ride the Time ATAC Carbons and they are great until the
spring breaks after 5 years or so of hard use).

Matt

Pas

TJ wrote:
> "Monique Y. Mudama" <spam@bounceswoosh.org> wrote in
> message news:slrncem4te.b91.spam@home.bounceswoosh.org...
>> On 2004-07-06, pas penned:
>>>
>>> just clip in. Give into it!! What's your big fear?
>>
>> Falling. Duh.
>>
>> Just as an example, I endo'd this weekend. I was out of
>> my pedals, so when my bike started tipping, my feet slid
>> forward and I was able to keep myself from flipping
>> forward. If I had had my feet clipped in, I would have
>> gone head-first into either rocks or the tree in front of
>> me. And no, clipping in would not have magically kept me
>> from falling. I'm sure better technique would have, but
>> that didn't happen.
>>
>> Yes, great, I should "just do it." But right now, while
>> I'm able to force myself to stay in the pedals for harder
>> and harder stuff, there is plenty out there where I just
>> won't do it. Not yet. And for that stuff, I want better
>> support than that slippery metal widget provides. As
>> Buffy would say, What's the big?
>>
>>
>> --
>> monique
>
> Run em with the tension at the lowest possible setting
> to get out quickly. After they are broken in it gets
> even easier.
>
> TJ

I've got mine set loose enough that there is always
bike/rider seperation in certain extreme situations. Perhaps
you need to get out the allen wrenched and lube, and loosen
them up a bit? Seriously.

works for me.

but if you start with a combo, you might want to get
shinguards. Those things can take real chunks out of
your skin.

Monique Y. Muda

On 2004-07-06, TJ penned:
>
> Run em with the tension at the lowest possible setting
> to get out quickly. After they are broken in it gets
> even easier.

They are, and I'm using multirelease cleats, too.

--
monique

Monique Y. Muda

On 2004-07-06, MattB penned:
> Monique Y. Mudama wrote:
>> On 2004-07-06, pas penned:
>>>
>>> just clip in. Give into it!! What's your big fear?
>>
>> Falling. Duh.
>>
>> Just as an example, I endo'd this weekend. I was out of
>> my pedals, so when my bike started tipping, my feet slid
>> forward and I was able to keep myself from flipping
>> forward. If I had had my feet clipped in, I would have
>> gone head-first into either rocks or the tree in front of
>> me. And no, clipping in would not have magically kept me
>> from falling. I'm sure better technique would have, but
>> that didn't happen.
>>
>
> Well, you may think that would have happened, but think
> about this: If you had been clipped in, chances are your
> weight would have been further back. That could have
> prevented the whole incident. Most of the
> beginner/intermediate endos I've witnessed have been at
> least partially caused by the rider not having their feet
> on the pedals (or too far forward on them). The worst ones
> are when the rider tried to walk down something steep
> while straddling the bike. Bad!

Okay, I don't try to walk down anything while straddling the
bike. That sounds like a really good way to get brained. Who
does this??

Other than that, I knew someone was going to play devil's
advocate here. Yes, it's possible that being clipped in
would have saved my ass. I tend to think that being clipped
in would have caused a non-productive panic response, but
maybe it would have helped.

I've had three endos. In all three, I was not clipped in.
One, I rode into a mud puddle and the mud reached out and
grabbed my front tire. Over I go. Two, I nailed my brakes
going downhill over an obstacle. Three, this weekend, coming
down off a steep rock and running my front wheel into a big
nasty root (that probably saved me from a big nasty tree).
Was not being clipped in a factor in any of these? I really
doubt it, but then, I couldn't see myself from a third-
person view.

Just curious -- how can you tell that having feet too far
forward was the problem, as opposed to something else? Do
you just mean that their body was too far forward, in part
because their feet were, too?

>
> Have you ever gone OTB while clipped in? I've come out of
> my pedals every single time (without trying). It seems the
> vast majority of being-in-the-pedal-induced falls are to
> the side.

I'm not sure that's any better when there's a dropoff to the
side ... but in any case, no, I haven't gone OTB while
clipped in. That's because I'm a big chicken and I'm never
clipped in anywhere remotely near anything that might cause
OTB-style behavior.

(On the other hand, I forced myself to ride large chunks of
Heil clipped in last night. Well, okay, just most of the
uphill approach. Still, more than I have in the past.)

> Also, if you must get new pedals with platforms, look
> into the Time Z pedals. I believe Carla has some and
> really likes them. I'd get some, but I don't need no
> stinkin' platforms! (I ride the Time ATAC Carbons and
> they are great until the spring breaks after 5 years or
> so of hard use).

I'll look at 'em -- I've been eyeing Time stuff covetously
of late, for no particular reason -- but wouldn't that
require new shoes as well as cleats and pedals?

There are certain situations where I just can't imagine it's
a good idea to be clipped in. There's a particular
switchback I'm thinking of, just after the trail starts at
Heil. (I finally cleared it on the way up yesterday; yay
me!) On the way down, if you don't make the turn perfectly,
you'll dive head first into a stream that's a good distance
below you. Now, if you're not good enough to *know* that
you'll manage this, why *wouldn't* you have a foot ready to
dab? I'm sure you'd laugh at this turn, but there must be
similar situations which you encounter. And for those
situations, why wouldn't you want some more traction for
your foot?

--
monique

Pas

pas wrote:
> TJ wrote:
>> "Monique Y. Mudama" <spam@bounceswoosh.org> wrote in
>> message news:slrncem4te.b91.spam@home.bounceswoosh.org...
>>> On 2004-07-06, pas penned:
>>>>
>>>> just clip in. Give into it!! What's your big fear?
>>>
>>> Falling. Duh.
>>>
>>> Just as an example, I endo'd this weekend. I was out of
>>> my pedals, so when my bike started tipping, my feet slid
>>> forward and I was able to keep myself from flipping
>>> forward. If I had had my feet clipped in, I would have
>>> gone head-first into either rocks or the tree in front
>>> of me. And no, clipping in would not have magically kept
>>> me from falling. I'm sure better technique would have,
>>> but that didn't happen.
>>>
>>> Yes, great, I should "just do it." But right now, while
>>> I'm able to force myself to stay in the pedals for
>>> harder and harder stuff, there is plenty out there where
>>> I just won't do it. Not yet. And for that stuff, I want
>>> better support than that slippery metal widget provides.
>>> As Buffy would say, What's the big?
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> monique
>>
>> Run em with the tension at the lowest possible setting to
>> get out quickly. After they are broken in it gets even
>> easier.
>>
>> TJ
>
> I've got mine set loose enough that there is always
> bike/rider seperation in certain extreme situations.
> Perhaps you need to get out the allen wrenched and lube,
> and loosen them up a bit? Seriously.
>

Eek sent that out without finishing the thought. The only
way you are going to get used to them is to use them. If you
have to work at getting out of them, they are too tight., or
just go for some flats until you get more comfortable as you
push yourself.

I think matt's on the $$ tho.

penny (

Slacker

Monique Y. Mudama wrote:

> Okay, I don't try to walk down anything while straddling
> the bike. That sounds like a really good way to get
> brained. Who does this??
>

I've done *that* It was my first OTB experience on a steep
DH. It was also the last time I ever did *that*

I've seen many newbies since doing the same thing. Believe
or not it's pretty common. It's a totally stupid thing to
do, but when you have no experience it seems like a good
idea at the time <G>

Experience is a bitch.
--
Slacker

Monique Y. Muda

On 2004-07-06, pas penned:
>
> Eek sent that out without finishing the thought. The only
> way you are going to get used to them is to use them. If
> you have to work at getting out of them, they are too
> tight., or just go for some flats until you get more
> comfortable as you push yourself.
>

I had flats, and I missed being clipped in -- sometimes.
It's not that I have to work at getting out of them; I've
always been able to unless the cleats are crusty. It's that
I'm afraid of those situations where I come to a sudden stop
and might not have time to choose to get out of them.

It's pure fear. Purely a psychological, not a physical,
issue. Quite powerful nevertheless.

I want a combo approach so that I can work on increasing my
trust in the clipless while still having decent traction
when I can't bring myself to trust. Switching to flats won't
help me with this process, and using plain-old clipless
doesn't somehow force me to stay in the pedals; it just
makes it really slippery when I don't. I've gotten amazingly
good at pedalling on my arches and keeping my feet touching
those tiny metal nubs, but what's the point?

I just want some training wheels for my feet.

--
monique