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07-07.-2004, 12:03 AM
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#1 |
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Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 4
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Where was the tour cop today?
Hi there,
having followed the stage 3 only one the live ticker so far, the situation looks as follows: In the hectic of the whole field just before the first pave section of this stage Mayo fell and the peleton split into two parts, leaving Mayo in the second group together with Heras/Moreau. How come that USP was still pushing after the pave section trying to increase the lead? And where was tour cop Hamilton asking USP and the other teams to slow down to allow Mayo to catch up? Looking at the most dicussed thread here dealing with the question "Did Ullrich wait in 2003?" I can only say: - if somebody fell out of "bad luck" than it was Mayo today rather than Armstrong in 2003 - why discuss so much about "fair play"? I have not yet seen a rider who really waited when competition was close. Only example might have been Ullrich in 2003 when he at least allowed Hamilton to catch up and play the tour cop. This is a sports competition and errors of one competitor will be and should be used by the opponent. I would still consider this as "fair". Regards, Chris |
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07-07.-2004, 03:42 AM
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#2 |
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 364
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When Mayo is wearing the yellow jersey, and there are only three or four stages left in this years tour--then you might be able to make a sensible comparison. Until then, this situation bears no similarity whatsoever to the situation in which Armstrong fell last year (while wearing the yellow jersey, with only a few days of competition left).
Jeff
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07-07.-2004, 03:47 AM
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#3 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Great Smoky Mountains, TN USA
Posts: 6,513
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That true as I understand it is an unwritten gentlemans agreement or understanding that the leader will be extended this courtesy. I don't think they can be penalized for not slowing down. But it might come back to haunt them the next time.
If they slowed down everytime someone crashed it would be a very slow race
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Whenever I can't get excited about riding I just fantasize about someone else's bike. |
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07-07.-2004, 04:19 AM
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#4 | ||
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Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Cardiff by the Sea, CA
Posts: 3
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Was Ullrich in yellow when he crashed and Lance waited? I don't honesly remember, but I don't think he was.
This situation was definitely for Lance to show his colors in this race, and I think he did. I don't think he will honor any code written or unwritten. He's got one thing on his mind this year. my $.02 Partly because of this post from the live report on cyclingnews.com Quote:
Quote:
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07-07.-2004, 04:33 AM
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#5 |
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Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Cardiff by the Sea, CA
Posts: 3
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[LINK]http://www.voy.com/75098/38736.html[/LINK]
This post is interesting. I think it might shed some light on this subject. The second point makes some sense. I still believe Lance will not be so "kind" this year though. Just as I am sure many of the "others" won't be as well.... Should be a good race.... |
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07-07.-2004, 06:03 AM
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#6 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,398
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As mentioned by others, this was a completely different story.
-- As mentioned, Mayo was not in yellow and we are in the earlier stages. Also, the person who fell (Mayo) has not won any TdFs, unlike LA. -- Second, Mayo had a number of teammates who were available to help pace him back to certain other riders (potentially), although that would have been difficult. When LA was waited for, he did not yet have Chechu on hand to help pace him. -- Third, everybody was jostling to get to the cobbles in the front of the group -- this was coming up after Mayo's fall. That was for their own personal safety. They could not have risked losing their own relative position (to other riders who didn't fall) for the sake of assisting Mayo. -- Fourth, this was a **much larger group** (a very significant distinction) of people who would have had to "wait" than the group that waited for LA. Coordination with such a large group is difficult. The size of the group further confirmed that no waiting was needed, because it was like Mayo and his group separated themselves from most of the other riders. -- Fifth, Mayo was not the victim of a musette (an item unrelated to the riders and the race), like LA was. True, LA might have been riding close to the holder of the musette, but the musette was an extraneous event introduced into the race by a bystander. If Mayo had been tripped up by a bystander, that would have still not justified the peloton waiting. However, Mayo was not tripped up by a bystander. This is highlighted by the fact that everybody knew the cobbles and the section leading up to them would be dangerous and required vigilance. It's not like Mayo didn't know that. -- Sixth, LA had built up goodwill/respect from JA and TH. So, they chose to wait for him. Why should LA/JA and TH wait for Mayo? What has he done for them lately? |
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07-07.-2004, 06:07 AM
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#7 |
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Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 9
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Mayo was in a crash before the pave section, when the tempo being set was already high with everyone trying to be the first ones into the cobbled section. It's not as if Mayo crashed and then Armstrong, Ullrich and Hamilton sent there guys to the front to step up the pace, the pace was already stepped up, and it's unfortunate for Mayo that he crashed at that unfortunate time.
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07-07.-2004, 06:16 AM
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#8 |
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Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 4
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Only in yellow?
Why should the "waiting" on somebody only depend on the fact that he wears yellow and a few stages left.
How much is "few"? I thought the idea behind this was not to win only because your competitor had bad luck but to let the better man win. And Mayo was one of the favorites. |
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07-07.-2004, 06:34 AM
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#9 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 38
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I don't think anything was done wrong today. Mayo was unfortunate to crash where he did but as mentioned the pace was already high and it was a big group that lost contact on the pave. Although I do think USP and Phonak kept the pace up after the pave knowing Mayo would lose time. That said I didn't think they should have waited for LA last year.
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07-07.-2004, 07:00 AM
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#10 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,398
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Even Mayo concedes people shouldn't have "waited" for him. Procycling reports:
"Asked if he was surprised when his yellow jersey rivals took advantage of his fall rather than waiting for him, Mayo said: 'That was the normal thing to do. I would have done the same thing in the place of Armstrong and co.'... Over at US Postal, feelings were much more upbeat. George Hincapie was one of the team’s key riders on the stage and he described the first stretch as 'very stressful. On big cobbles like that it's imperative to stay at the front. I'm very happy at the way it turned out. We heard that Mayo had fallen, **but it would have been impossible to slow down and wait then.** The headwind really took its toll. When we came off the cobbles Eki and I were too tired to keep driving after an effort like that. Leipheimer and Heras had caught up by then, so Liberty and Rabobank were happy to take up the chase.' Asked by one journalist if his team should have waited in the same way some riders did when Lance Armstrong crashed at Luz Ardiden last year, US Postal team boss Johan Bruyneel said: 'I don't see why we should have waited for Mayo. No one waited for the yellow jersey.'"  |
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07-07.-2004, 11:52 AM
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#11 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Anchorage, Alaska, USA
Posts: 1,672
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Consider also that USPS is not a runaway favorite in the conditions of this stage. The crosswinds were very significant, and CSC has dominated classics races this season under these conditions. If Team CSC's Jens Voigt hadn't broken away early on, it may have been their game again today.
And remember that if the main peloton had waited for Mayo, it would have lost time to the 2 breakaway riders, Bram De Groot and Jens Voight. I don't think these two would have waited, considering they were at a disadvantage as it is. They were already pushing by themselves for many, many km. The peloton, with it's cadre of sensational sprinters, would not have given up their day in the sun by waiting for Mayo while these two riders rode on to glory. Last edited by gntlmn : 07-07.-2004 at 01:41 PM. |
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07-07.-2004, 02:29 PM
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#12 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,398
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In OLNTV coverage, LA is interviewed post-race, and suggested that the riders were going relatively quickly, around 40 speed, and that therefore it wasn't appropriate for the riders in front to stop on the first cobbles. Then, he said that the riders who were already in front wanted to stay in front through the second cobbles, so they did. Of course, everybody knows USPS wanted to put in time to Mayo. But of course LA made it sound like he didn't want to do Mayo in.
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07-07.-2004, 06:41 PM
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#13 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Sydney
Posts: 343
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Quote:
So they should all wait for LA if he falls just because he has won the race before. That's so nice to make it easy for him to win again.  The pave section that they were approaching and jostling for position etc. How long is the pave area before they are back onto smooth road? I get the impression it's not very long. (we only get highlights). So if thats the case then sure they could still maintain speed and position until safely through the area and then ease off to wait, therefore posing no danger. It does certainly sound like Mayo's fall was taken advantage of, the pave section a conveniant reason. I do believe though that a race is a race, the best prepared, smartest tactition, best luck etc. should win. I don't think LA's fall last year was bad luck he put himself in that position & paid the penalty, Rider error! As has been mentioned about Mayo, he could have put himself in a better position and limiting the chances of a fall, so rider error. Rider Error is a part of racing. So essentially, why wait if a rider cocks up his own race? Maybe this years race is going to bit a little more cut throat with so many competative GC riders. |
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07-07.-2004, 07:42 PM
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#14 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 38
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Quote:
Both sections of pave were around 3KM in total, both USP and Phonak kept the pace up after the second section until the sprinter teams took it on. Like you said they were intentionally putting pressure on Mayo and I also agree there is nothing wrong with this. Also if it had been LA in the same position regardless of how many tdf he has won or if he was in yellow there would be nothing wrong in not waiting for him, tbh I would encourage it. |
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07-07.-2004, 08:34 PM
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#15 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,398
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Consider another reason why nobody needed to wait for Mayo:
-- His time loss to the LA/JU/TH group was increased after his crash. If Eusaktel had better responded, the gap (if there were one) upon the finish would not have been so large. -More crucially, Euskatel had a *significiantly weaker* rouleur team/TTT/ITT team than, say, USPS. If it had been LA who fell at the time Mayo did and nobody waited for LA, USPS could have more readily paced LA back to the peloton by TTT. LA could have done a better job pacing himself back to the peloton because he is better on flats/ITT than Mayo. So whose fault is it that the team was insufficient to pace the leader back? Obviously, Euskatel's. The team is not designed to be as strong in these kinds of situations and that's why it paid! -- Euskatel should have reiterated to Menchov the need for him to help Euskatel because he would also lose considerable time. Menchov should have been more helpful. -- I wouldn't be surprised if USPS had planned using the cobbles to rid themselves of somebody of potential GC thread to LA (possibly Heras or Mayo). The cobbles can be utilized a bit like the wind under certain conditions -- to blow apart the peloton. Also, Bruyneel is strategic enough to know that, even if it were one of the better TTT teams (like Phonak, relative to Euskatel) that were caught off the main group of the peloton, having that team have to essentially TTT back to the peloton would damage that team's chances in the TTT the next day. This is a similar strategy to what Bruyneel used in the stage prior to the ITT for the Vuelta 03. http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/200...results/stage12 Among the riders caught outside the first part of the peloton were Aitor González and Dario Frigo lost 1'09 in the GC. Right before Stage 12, the GC read as follows: 1 Isidro Nozal (Spa) O.N.C.E.-Eroski 37.12.40 2 Igor Gonzalez De Galdeano (Spa) O.N.C.E.-Eroski 1.48 3 Manuel Beltran (Spa) US Postal-Berry Floor 3.03 **4 Dario Frigo (Ita) Fassa Bortolo 3.05** **5 Roberto Heras (Spa) US Postal-Berry Floor 3.28** 6 Francisco Mancebo (Spa) iBanesto.com 3.40 7 Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Kelme-Costa Blanca 3.57 **8 Aitor Gonzalez (Spa) Fassa Bortolo 4.00** 9 Michael Rasmussen (Den) Rabobank 4.04 10 Unai Osa (Spa) iBanesto.com 4.14 Here were the relevant standings after Stage 12:: 1 Isidro Nozal (Spa) O.N.C.E.-Eroski 40.54.29 2 Igor Gonzalez De Galdeano (Spa) O.N.C.E.-Eroski 1.48 3 Manuel Beltran (Spa) US Postal-Berry Floor 3.03 **4 Roberto Heras (Spa) US Postal-Berry Floor 3.28** 5 Francisco Mancebo (Spa) iBanesto.com 3.40 6 Michael Rasmussen (Den) Rabobank 4.04 **7 Dario Frigo (Ita) Fassa Bortolo 4.14** 8 Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Kelme-Costa Blanca 5.06 **9 Aitor Gonzalez (Spa) Fassa Bortolo 5.09** In each case, USPS could have had a strategy of seeing who would be lost when the peloton split, and then taking advantage if there were significant GC contenders in the back part of the peloton/after it. What happens after the ITT? The GC is as follows: Isidro Nozal (Spa) O.N.C.E.-Eroski 41.56.32 2 Igor Gonzalez De Galdeano (Spa) O.N.C.E.-Eroski 3.03 **3 Roberto Heras (Spa) US Postal-Berry Floor 5.13** 4 Manuel Beltran (Spa) US Postal-Berry Floor 5.39 5 Francisco Mancebo (Spa) iBanesto.com 7.12 6 Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Kelme-Costa Blanca 7.50 7 Michael Rasmussen (Den) Rabobank 8.44 8 Luis Perez (Spa) Cofidis, Le Crédit par Téléphone 8.49 **9 Dario Frigo (Ita) Fassa Bortolo 8.50** 10 Unai Osa (Spa) iBanesto.com 10.10 **11 Aitor Gonzalez (Spa) Fassa Bortolo 10.57** Frigo and A Gonzalez have effectively been eliminated as GC contenders. Last edited by musette : 07-07.-2004 at 09:02 PM. |
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