Overly-Sensitive handling Any ideas?

Mark

Hi All, I have a basically new 3 year old NOS Bianchi
Road Bike, with conventional geometry, and one slightly
disappointing quality I notice about this bike when I
ride it, is that it seems a bit overly sensitive to
steering input.

It seems like just the slightest input from me at the bars,
and this bike is all over the place. I don't dare take my
hands off the bars for a second.

It does not exhibit as good stability as I wish it would,
and wonder what causes this? The bike has never been
crashed. The frame from all accounts that I can tell
appears straight.

I've searched some tech articles, but cannot currently find
anything relating to stability when riding?

Can anything be done to lessen this "Touchy" effect? I've
never had the Headset apart, and while it seems solid, maybe
this should be broken down, lubed, and re-adjusted? Or is
this more likely another cause, like frame geometry,
position of rider on bike, etc? Opinions would be
appreciated, Thanks! Mark

Russell Seaton

How long of a stem do you have on the bike? Real short stems
can be very, very twitchy.

How high are the handlebars? Short wtems with high bars can
also make the handling twitchy.

What size bike is it? A bad combination of stem length, bar
height, overall frame size can affect handling. One of the
reasons to have a well fitting bike.

Where is your body weight positioned? Are you way back and
have little weight on the bars? Or are you way forward and
have too much weight on the bars? Either can cause handling
to be not right.

How experienced are you at bicycling? Different levels of
experience will interpret handling differently. What seems
twitchy to you may seem just right to someone else.

Just some ideas to think about and look at on your bike.

apoman60612@yahoo.com (Mark) wrote in message
news:<68236fb6.0407060602.27533845@posting.google.com>...
> Hi All, I have a basically new 3 year old NOS Bianchi
> Road Bike, with conventional geometry, and one slightly
> disappointing quality I notice about this bike when I
> ride it, is that it seems a bit overly sensitive to
> steering input.
>
> It seems like just the slightest input from me at the
> bars, and this bike is all over the place. I don't dare
> take my hands off the bars for a second.
>
> It does not exhibit as good stability as I wish it would,
> and wonder what causes this? The bike has never been
> crashed. The frame from all accounts that I can tell
> appears straight.
>
> I've searched some tech articles, but cannot currently
> find anything relating to stability when riding?
>
> Can anything be done to lessen this "Touchy" effect? I've
> never had the Headset apart, and while it seems solid,
> maybe this should be broken down, lubed, and re-adjusted?
> Or is this more likely another cause, like frame geometry,
> position of rider on bike, etc? Opinions would be
> appreciated, Thanks! Mark

Chalo

apoman60612@yahoo.com (Mark) wrote:
>
> I have a basically new 3 year old NOS Bianchi Road Bike,
> with conventional geometry, and one slightly disappointing
> quality I notice about this bike when I ride it, is that
> it seems a bit overly sensitive to steering input.
>
> Can anything be done to lessen this "Touchy" effect? I

Visit your LBS and find out whether the frame and fork
are straight, wheels are centered, and headset is
running smoothly.

If there is nothing wrong with the frame, fork, or headset,
fatter tires are a good first resort for adding a smidgen of
rolling inertia, gyroscopic stability, steering trail, and
ride smoothness.

A longer fork is a further measure you can take, but
shouldn't be necessary. If you crave a stabler ride, a road
racing type bike is probably not for you. If you are
previously accustomed to a motorcycle or a balloon-tire
cruiser, you should probably just give yourself some time
to readjust to the more sensitive equilibrium of a
lightweight bicycle.

Chalo Colina

Mark

Hi Russell/all,

So, you are saying that a short Bar Stem Raised quite a bit
will cause this effect?

This was something I did do recently, was I did raise the
handlebar Quill Stem about 1", as I thought it would offer a
slightly more comfortable ride.

I am not at the stem limit, but probably a 1/2" from it
though. Yes, before I did this, it did seem a bit more
stable, so, I think you may have found the culprit.

The bike is a 57cm, and I'm 5'-8" in height. I have owned
about 8-9 road bikes in all, so this isn't my first
experience with road bikes, or 700x23 tires

I think first thing I'll try, is lowering the Stem 1" once
again to see what that does?

One other thing I do notice is that the dish/offset on my
front wheel seems ever so slightly off to one side. Can this
also affect handling? I imagine that it might? I've had the
back wheel trued, and spokes re-tensioned, as it was really
quite bad from the factory, with horribly loose spokes.

The front wasn't as bad as the back, but for the small fee,
and the great work my LBS does, maybe it's time to let them
true-tension the front also? The bike has about 600mi on it.
My experience with road bikes is not too bad, but was better
20 years ago I'm afraid. Just coming back from a long
layoff.Mark

russellseaton1@yahoo.com (Russell Seaton) wrote in message
news:<e90052be.0407061134.195cdc08@posting.google.com>...
> How long of a stem do you have on the bike? Real short
> stems can be very, very twitchy.
>
> How high are the handlebars? Short wtems with high bars
> can also make the handling twitchy.
>
> What size bike is it? A bad combination of stem length,
> bar height, overall frame size can affect handling. One of
> the reasons to have a well fitting bike.
>
> Where is your body weight positioned? Are you way back and
> have little weight on the bars? Or are you way forward and
> have too much weight on the bars? Either can cause
> handling to be not right.
>
> How experienced are you at bicycling? Different levels of
> experience will interpret handling differently. What seems
> twitchy to you may seem just right to someone else.
>
> Just some ideas to think about and look at on your bike.

Russell Seaton

apoman60612@yahoo.com (Mark) wrote in message news:<68236fb6.0407070553.50c768c5@posting.google.com>...
> Hi Russell/all,
>
> So, you are saying that a short Bar Stem Raised quite a
> bit will cause this effect?

A really short stem raised really high will make handling
twitchy. I know someone with a 5cm Nitto Technomic raised
to the maximum and the handling is twitchy if hands are off
the bars. But with hands on the bars, the bike was ridden
across the USA and has ridden many week long rides since.
So even not ideal stem height and stem length can be
managed well enough.

>
> This was something I did do recently, was I did raise the
> handlebar Quill Stem about 1", as I thought it would offer
> a slightly more comfortable ride.
>
> I am not at the stem limit, but probably a 1/2" from it
> though. Yes, before I did this, it did seem a bit more
> stable, so, I think you may have found the culprit.

You can try lowering it to see what happens. But I have my
TTT Synthesis quill stem at its maximum and handling is fine
on my 58cm bike. Stem is 12 cm extension.

>
> The bike is a 57cm, and I'm 5'-8" in height. I have owned
> about 8-9 road bikes in all, so this isn't my first
> experience with road bikes, or 700x23 tires

57cm frame and 5'8" tall? I would guess you are on about the
largest frame you can ride. Just guessing. I am also
guessing the stem is not long. And it was raised to get the
overall reach closer. You may have a bad combination of
slightly too big of a frame, slightly too high of bars,
slightly too short of stem, and you being stretched out to
your limit trying to hold onto the bars.

Are you riding with your hands on the tops a majority of the
time because the hoods are quite a stretch? If so then the
length of your bike's rudder, so to speak, is only the stem
extension length. While riding on the hoods, the bike's
rudder length is the combined length of the stem extension
and the bar reach. Handling will be twitchier with your
hands on the tops instead of further out on the hoods.

>
> I think first thing I'll try, is lowering the Stem 1" once
> again to see what that does?

I would guess you will be even more stretched out than you
currently are and handling would suffer.

>
> One other thing I do notice is that the dish/offset on my
> front wheel seems ever so slightly off to one side. Can
> this also affect handling? I imagine that it might? I've
> had the back wheel trued, and spokes re-tensioned, as it
> was really quite bad from the factory, with horribly
> loose spokes.

I doubt if this matters any. I have ridden many wheels that
were not true and never noticed any change in handling. I've
broken spoes on the back and had the rear wheel wobbling
side to side a half inch or more and never noticed a change
in handling. Loss of efficiency from having the wheel wobble
so much. I currently ride a front wheel that is about 3mm
out of dish. Its a boutique wheel and would require a fair
amount of effort to dish it so I just ride the wheel. Its
true but out of dish 3mm. Seems to ride just fine.

>
> The front wasn't as bad as the back, but for the small
> fee, and the great work my LBS does, maybe it's time to
> let them true-tension the front also? The bike has about
> 600mi on it. My experience with road bikes is not too bad,
> but was better 20 years ago I'm afraid. Just coming back
> from a long layoff.Mark

Have your LBS true the front wheel too. Can't hurt and might
help. I doubt you will notice any difference but its nice to
have your bike working well. If its been 20 years since you
rode a road bike it could be you aren't bending as well and
you need the overall reach to be shorter now. And you may
need a shorter reach bike.

>
> russellseaton1@yahoo.com (Russell Seaton) wrote in message
> news:<e90052be.0407061134.195cdc08@posting.google.com>...
> > How long of a stem do you have on the bike? Real short
> > stems can be very, very twitchy.
> >
> > How high are the handlebars? Short wtems with high bars
> > can also make the handling twitchy.
> >
> > What size bike is it? A bad combination of stem length,
> > bar height, overall frame size can affect handling. One
> > of the reasons to have a well fitting bike.
> >
> > Where is your body weight positioned? Are you way back
> > and have little weight on the bars? Or are you way
> > forward and have too much weight on the bars? Either can
> > cause handling to be not right.
> >
> > How experienced are you at bicycling? Different levels
> > of experience will interpret handling differently.
> > What seems twitchy to you may seem just right to
> > someone else.
> >
> > Just some ideas to think about and look at on your bike.

Jeff Starr

Mark wrote:
> Hi Russell/all,
>
> So, you are saying that a short Bar Stem Raised quite a
> bit will cause this effect?
>
> This was something I did do recently, was I did raise the
> handlebar Quill Stem about 1", as I thought it would offer
> a slightly more comfortable ride.
>
> I am not at the stem limit, but probably a 1/2" from it
> though. Yes, before I did this, it did seem a bit more
> stable, so, I think you may have found the culprit.
>
> The bike is a 57cm, and I'm 5'-8" in height. I have owned
> about 8-9 road bikes in all, so this isn't my first
> experience with road bikes, or 700x23 tires
>
> I think first thing I'll try, is lowering the Stem 1" once
> again to see what that does?
>
> One other thing I do notice is that the dish/offset on my
> front wheel seems ever so slightly off to one side. Can
> this also affect handling? I imagine that it might? I've
> had the back wheel trued, and spokes re-tensioned, as it
> was really quite bad from the factory, with horribly
> loose spokes.
>
> The front wasn't as bad as the back, but for the small
> fee, and the great work my LBS does, maybe it's time to
> let them true-tension the front also? The bike has about
> 600mi on it. My experience with road bikes is not too bad,
> but was better 20 years ago I'm afraid. Just coming back
> from a long layoff.Mark
>
>
Hi, when you lower the stem, if it is hard to reach the
hoods, try angling the bars upward. That might help a
little, not for stability, but for reach.

Life is Good! Jeff

Jim Smith

russellseaton1@yahoo.com (Russell Seaton) writes:

> A really short stem raised really high will make handling
> twitchy. I know someone with a 5cm Nitto Technomic raised
> to the maximum and the handling is twitchy if hands are
> off the bars.

Interesting. I have never really looked into the physics of
bike handling, so it is counter-intuitive to me that the
stem can affect handling when hands are off the bars. Can
someone explain how this works?

carlfogel

On 08 Jul 2004 19:55:04 -0500, Jim Smith
<bokonon442news@yahoo.com> wrote:

>russellseaton1@yahoo.com (Russell Seaton) writes:
>
>> A really short stem raised really high will make handling
>> twitchy. I know someone with a 5cm Nitto Technomic raised
>> to the maximum and the handling is twitchy if hands are
>> off the bars.
>
>
>Interesting. I have never really looked into the physics of
>bike handling, so it is counter-intuitive to me that the
>stem can affect handling when hands are off the bars. Can
>someone explain how this works?

Dear Jim,

Bicycle handling is a dark and bloody mystery, but if the
farther the mass of the handlebars is from where things
happen, the more likely they are to vibrate, oscillate, and
generally make a nuisance of themselves.

In a current thread, Rick Onanian confesses that his bicycle
is shimmying alarmingly after he reaches 15 mph and lets go
of the handlebars. The aero-bars sticking out on the front
of his handlebars may be the culprit.

Carl Fogel

Rick Onanian

On Thu, 08 Jul 2004 21:39:35 -0600, carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>In a current thread, Rick Onanian confesses that his
>bicycle is shimmying alarmingly after he reaches 15 mph and
>lets go of the handlebars. The aero-bars sticking out on
>the front of his handlebars may be the culprit.

Or, it could be the tall stem, as implicated here. Or, a
combination of both. Or, the any combination of those issues
with other issues...

My question was just if the troubleshooting of said shimmy
works the same way as the troubleshooting of high-speed
shimmy, which has been discussed to death here, and which I
can find oodles of information on with google groups. The
non-resounding answer was "yes".
--
Rick Onanian

Mark

carlfogel@comcast.net wrote in message news:<8k4se0l4k26h1e3019lq3j94harcdl7jdv@4ax.com>...
> On 08 Jul 2004 19:55:04 -0500, Jim Smith
> <bokonon442news@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >russellseaton1@yahoo.com (Russell Seaton) writes:
> >
> >> A really short stem raised really high will make
> >> handling twitchy. I know someone with a 5cm Nitto
> >> Technomic raised to the maximum and the handling is
> >> twitchy if hands are off the bars.
> >
> >
> >Interesting. I have never really looked into the physics
> >of bike handling, so it is counter-intuitive to me that
> >the stem can affect handling when hands are off the bars.
> >Can someone explain how this works?
>
> Dear Jim,
>
> Bicycle handling is a dark and bloody mystery, but if the
> farther the mass of the handlebars is from where things
> happen, the more likely they are to vibrate, oscillate,
> and generally make a nuisance of themselves.
>
> In a current thread, Rick Onanian confesses that his
> bicycle is shimmying alarmingly after he reaches 15 mph
> and lets go of the handlebars. The aero-bars sticking out
> on the front of his handlebars may be the culprit.
>
> Carl Fogel

Hi Carl/All; Two days ago, after starting this thread, I
decided to remove front Mavic wheel, and take it in to the
LBS to be trued/re-tensioned. While this was being done, I
came home and removed Fork for Headset Bearing Re-Lube, and
adjustment, and did lower the Quill Stem about
1/2" (Almost back to where it originally was, which was very
low). It is a bit better now, but still is not as stable
as I wish it would be.

It was beneficial going over the Headset, as Lube was
virtually non-existant, and dried out. Luckily, it appears
no apparent damage has occured, and this strengthens my
thoughts even more about how factory built bikes essentially
need a complete teardown/lube from day
2.

I pray my BB doesn't look that way.

While I didn't buy the bike from the LBS, I asked the LBS
owner if I could bring the bike in, and help me check over
bike fit adjustments for myself. I'm thinking also, that
possibly, my saddle fore/aft position may be off slightly,
and this could be affecting balance weight between the
front/rear wheels? They'll know for sure. Mark

Russell Seaton

Jim Smith <bokonon442news@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<87eknmdmon.fsf@yahoo.com>...
> russellseaton1@yahoo.com (Russell Seaton) writes:
>
> > A really short stem raised really high will make
> > handling twitchy. I know someone with a 5cm Nitto
> > Technomic raised to the maximum and the handling is
> > twitchy if hands are off the bars.
>
>
> Interesting. I have never really looked into the physics
> of bike handling, so it is counter-intuitive to me that
> the stem can affect handling when hands are off the bars.
> Can someone explain how this works?

The bike I know has the bars very, very high. A Nitto
Technomic at the maximum line. A 5cm extension. And the
frame is a 47cm or something. So even with the hands off the
bars, the weight of the bars and brakes are very high on a
very, very short stem. Any minor undulation in the road. Any
blade of grass on the road. And all of that bar/shifter
weight way up there will move and affect handling.

To test your intuition, take the bars and stem completely
off a bike and try riding it. No handed of course. I bet
you will discover that the bike needs a certain amount of
weight at a certain height and forward extension to ride
stable. With no weight to balance the front wheel and fork,
handling would not be good. Somewhat similar to the bike I
am thinking of. All of the weight is directly above the
steerer and is very high. The natural stability of the bike
is affected.

Woogoogle

apoman60612@yahoo.com (Mark) wrote in message news:<68236fb6.0407070553.50c768c5@posting.google.com>...
>
> The bike is a 57cm, and I'm 5'-8" in height. I have owned
> about 8-9 road bikes in all, so this isn't my first
> experience with road bikes, or 700x23 tires

From this alone it sounds like you should be riding a 48-53
frame, depending upon the top tube length. Why are you
riding a bike this large?

Mark

Hi Steven, But from this alone, why would this give a bike
instability?

Why would there be a difference in stability if the bike was
48cm, or 61cm? (Provided saddle height was adjusted so I
could reach the pedals?)

In fact, wouldn't a larger frame, which generally also has a
longer wheelbase be more stable at straight line speed?

I have on occasion ridden road bikes that were way too large
for me (60-61cm), yet they exhibited super stability, where
I could ride hands free for miles if I chose. Mark

stevenwoo@gmail.com (Woogoogle) wrote in message
news:<4011b2ad.0407091159.58de1941@posting.google.com>...
> apoman60612@yahoo.com (Mark) wrote in message
> news:<68236fb6.0407070553.50c768c5@posting.google.com>...
> >
> > The bike is a 57cm, and I'm 5'-8" in height. I have
> > owned about 8-9 road bikes in all, so this isn't my
> > first experience with road bikes, or 700x23 tires
>
> From this alone it sounds like you should be riding a 48-
> 53 frame, depending upon the top tube length. Why are you
> riding a bike this large?

Russell Seaton

apoman60612@yahoo.com (Mark) wrote in message news:<68236fb6.0407091929.73e163ae@posting.google.com>...
> Hi Steven, But from this alone, why would this give a bike
> instability?
>
> Why would there be a difference in stability if the bike
> was 48cm, or 61cm? (Provided saddle height was adjusted so
> I could reach the pedals?)

Because to fit a big frame, you will have to move the saddle
way forward, and put on a super short stem so you can reach
the bars. Frame fit means reach to the bars too. And as I
stated above, a super short stem, to make it possible for
you to reach the bars, will be twitchy.

If you are so stretched out to get your hands on the bars,
you will likely not have the best control of the bike.

>
> In fact, wouldn't a larger frame, which generally also has
> a longer wheelbase be more stable at straight line speed?
>
> I have on occasion ridden road bikes that were way too
> large for me (60-61cm), yet they exhibited super
> stability, where I could ride hands free for miles if I
> chose. Mark

>
> stevenwoo@gmail.com (Woogoogle) wrote in message
> news:<4011b2ad.0407091159.58de1941@posting.google.com>...
> > apoman60612@yahoo.com (Mark) wrote in message news:<682-
> > 36fb6.0407070553.50c768c5@posting.google.com>...
> > >
> > > The bike is a 57cm, and I'm 5'-8" in height. I have
> > > owned about 8-9 road bikes in all, so this isn't my
> > > first experience with road bikes, or 700x23 tires
> >
> > From this alone it sounds like you should be riding a
> > 48-53 frame, depending upon the top tube length. Why are
> > you riding a bike this large?