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11-01.-2004, 01:17 PM
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#1 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 957
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Sprint power on trainer vs. road
i recently got a power tap pro and i am riding my kurt kinetic trainer this winter. has anyone noticed that they can hit a higher max watts outside than on the trainer? i can do about 50-100 more watts outside.
i am thinking this is due to not being able to sway the bike while pulling on the bars while sprinting, when on the trainer. also, does anybody have the numbers on what kind of power top level espoir age track racers can do in a sprint? like max watts and ave watts for a 200meter sprint. |
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11-01.-2004, 07:09 PM
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#2 | |
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Community Team
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newport, South Wales
Posts: 3,831
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Re: Sprint power on trainer vs. road
Quote:
Although i have no experience with the trainer you mention, it's likely that most (commercially available, but probably not all) trainers cannot generate enough resistance for good sprinters to reach their peak power. furthermore, as noted, you can generally generate more power when out of the saddle, and also if you sprint at the base of a hill. world class (male) track sprinters are in the region of 1800 to 2300 W. At very high levels with very fast cadences the PT may not pick up all the data (for a peak reading) -- for this you'd need a minimum of an SRM Pro. Don't forget to set the PT to the highest recording level (1-sec). Ric
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13-01.-2004, 05:09 AM
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#3 | |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 96
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Re: Sprint power on trainer vs. road
Quote:
I reckon that this could be about right for the difference between out of saddle power and in-saddle power. If there was no difference why would road sprinters remain out of saddle all the way to the line in what seems an aerodynamically inferior position? Swaying the bike (regarded as unnecessary by some) could allow you to input perhaps 50W of power. The legs muscles are used over different ranges and with different contraction speeed profiles and I speculate these could be closer to "ideal" for maximum power. Mathematical modellers have predicted very significant max-power gains if the muscles could be brought close to their ideal contraction speed profiles. (Only models though!) |
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22-01.-2004, 03:05 AM
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#4 | |
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Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 1,265
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Re: Sprint power on trainer vs. road
Quote:
Take a look at www.britishcycling.org.uk as they have selection criteria for the national squad with power values (SRM) for different diciplines and ages.
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22-10.-2005, 08:36 PM
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#5 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 797
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Re: Sprint power on trainer vs. road
The worlds fastest look like they are seated most of the way.....Question, lets say the top speed in a sprint was 40mph. are the max watts numbers that you noted 1800-2300 based on acceleration up to 40mph or the brief time spent at max speed. (sorry my powertap is on the way) ......................I also have a kurt trainer, and my top speed numbers are about the same on the road, but acceleration is a waste of time due to slipage. Thanks BP
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22-10.-2005, 09:05 PM
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#6 | |
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Community Team
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newport, South Wales
Posts: 3,831
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Re: Sprint power on trainer vs. road
It tends to be that your speed is still increasing even as your power is decreasing. In other words peak power occurs prior to peak speed.
ric Quote:
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23-10.-2005, 12:49 AM
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#7 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 797
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Re: Sprint power on trainer vs. road
Thank you. I seem to have plenty of leg speed in small gears, but its not giving me overall speed. I find I can go faster in 90+ gears mashing away. it feels like i am riding in mud but i am going faster??? I am exited for the power tap.....I think the less expensive trainers might be best for just spinning and some interval training. Thanks again
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23-10.-2005, 01:20 AM
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#8 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 337
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Re: Sprint power on trainer vs. road
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Power is what makes the bike go faster, not cadence. Generating power involves cadence and force on the pedals. I see a lot of people imitating a certain TdF winner's cadence but none imitating his force on pedals so in the end they also lack his power. |
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23-10.-2005, 03:06 AM
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#9 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 797
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Re: Sprint power on trainer vs. road
I feel I am more suited to sprinting, thats why I am trying to pic peoples brains on the subject. I think I am going to go to an on line coach. I stared cycling this year after 20 yrs of powerlifting. ( cholesterol problem) I agree with what you are saying on power. I never knew that my knees could get so sore from mashing those biger gears though. I did a few crits last year and had fun and as the year went on my road cadence kept getting higher(to protect my knees) as my power went the other way. Thanks BP
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23-10.-2005, 03:53 AM
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#10 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 957
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Re: Sprint power on trainer vs. road
Quote:
It's been awhile since I started this topic and I learned a lot with my powertap. Peak power is ALWAYS achieved during the acceleration of a sprint, in the first 3 seconds if you go full out from the start. I have hit around 2000 peak this summer, but can't do a good 200meter to save my life (best ~11.8s), as my power at the end of such a sprint would be ~800w. I did work on hill sprints too, got a PB of 1500w average for 20seconds. I wish so bad that I could do that power in a 200m, but it must be my poor leg speed. So I always say my jump is my best, but as soon as the cadence goes above 120rpms I loose lots of power. I have noticed that my seated power is usually around 200w below standing power too. I discovered a fun way to work on top end/cadence - downhill sprints. Even in top gear 53x12, I can get that over 150rpms on a decent hill. The fun part is, I am hauling a$$ (over 50mph), but it's really good for training power at high leg speed. I just despise doing a flat 200m sprint, it's no fun. If it's not fun, you won't do them, and won't improve. Or if you make yourself do them, you won't really be motivated enough to push yourself the most. Downhill sprints rock! I'm such a speed junkie, lol. I also got rid of the powertap. I got too caught up in the numbers and decided to just ride and have fun. The only thing I look at now is top speed :-D One of the best workouts I did to work on my jump was go down a small hill that leads into an uphill. That way you can thrash the bike like a gorilla without having to shift or being undergeared. I have gone up short hills doing this at speeds that were unimaginable to me a few years ago, like 32mph up 6%. That was one of my favorite workouts. I did some sprints on the kurt trainer, but not in a while. I don't like having my bike fixed in a position. I injured my knee a couple times doing sprints on the trainer. There was some tire slippage, but you just have to tighten the roller harder, like 3 rotations after tire contract. I must say, the kurt kinetic trainer is likely one of the best ones for doing sprints, you will never spin that thing out!
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"friendship, family, religion. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business!" -Mr. Burns  The faster you go, the fewer passing cars 
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23-10.-2005, 04:12 AM
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#11 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Kansas City, USA
Posts: 3,689
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Re: Sprint power on trainer vs. road
Quote:
What about small chainring sprints for this? If you're just working on leg speed, is there really a need to be doing 50 mph down a hill? As a separate, but related, question: do the best sprinters turn >150rpm cadence during their sprints (road sprinters, mostly)? I would think it would be difficult to coordinate the legs and arm pulling at that speed. |
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23-10.-2005, 05:04 AM
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#12 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 797
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Re: Sprint power on trainer vs. road
Thanks for the reply. Your power tap numbers would suggest that you doing pretty well. I am thinking about buying an srm and converting a schwinn airdyne into a chain driven airgometer.(no slip) I know I am a bit twisted... If my memory serves,I think I am a bit older than you and most likely have a little bit more cash to waste. I think the age group wr 45-50 is 11.2, and I am a cocky s.o.b., so thats my goal, I am just not sure quite how fast that would need to be on the street( i know totaly different) which is where i will do about 90% of my training.PB 38mph 150rpm 48x14... Back to the subject...I read that M. Nothstien did 2200 watts 50x14 at 160 rpm at his best 49mph YIKES!!! When he says that, he is talking the flying 200 I think. Wouldnt he already be at or near max speed (and not 2200watts) at the begining of the 200 and be hanging on from there??I think thats where I am confused about watt output in that event. My guess is he is seated for most of his last 200m too, or was the watts he was refering to during the wind. WATTS UP??? Thanks BP
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23-10.-2005, 05:55 AM
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#13 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 957
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Re: Sprint power on trainer vs. road
Quote:
small chainring sprints are fine for developing JUST leg speed. but there is a difference between 160rpms in the small ring and 160rpms in your sprint gear - power. Sprinting downhills would have the simular effect of doing 200m sprints, the difference like I said above, is that it's a lot more FUN. That is a big factor for me. I can do 220rpms on the road in my granny gear, but I can't ride a sub 11.8 200m. See the difference? It's all about high sustained power at high cadences (140-160rpms), for 200m sprints. Road sprinters don't go much above ~125rpms during flat sprints, because they got gears, and they are standing not seated. Don't start comparing road sprints to track sprints, they are way different. As for sprinting at high cadences on the track, it's always in the saddle so there is very little pulling on the bars, and it's not an issue. But even on a road bike, it's possible to ride at 160+rpms out of the saddle, although its very inefficient.
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"friendship, family, religion. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business!" -Mr. Burns The faster you go, the fewer passing cars
Last edited by velomanct : 23-10.-2005 at 06:04 AM. |
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23-10.-2005, 06:04 AM
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#14 | |
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Community Team
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newport, South Wales
Posts: 3,831
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Re: Sprint power on trainer vs. road
Quote:
Bill, feel free to give me a shout -- i've coached world class 200-m and 1-km TT riders, cheers ric
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23-10.-2005, 06:23 AM
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#15 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 957
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Re: Sprint power on trainer vs. road
Quote:
"...I read that M. Nothstien did 2200 watts 50x14 at 160 rpm at his best 49mph" You can't take that statement word for word. Marty said his max watts was 2200, I am assuming that is NOT during any part of a 200m TT. He likely hit those watts during a match sprint where he jumped hard, or during a simular effort. It is not smart to go 100% full out explosive during your windup for a 200m TT, you use too much gas. I also highly doubt he hit his peak watts at 160rpms, I hit my peak at 115rpms. And he would certainly not be at peak power at top speed. The 49mph- who knows where that was. On the road, track, leadout, it makes a big difference. All I know is that I can't get above 40mph on a dead flat windless road. Remember, the 200m TT is a ~20second effort, not 10, 11, 12 seconds. It takes a lot of work to get up to top speed before you hit the line. I hate how so many people disregard this, although I think you understand. This summer I spent a lot of time doing sprints and learned how much difference in intensity there is between just a "road sprint" and a real full out explosive jump of ~4-5seconds. When I hit my best peak watts, it's during one of those 5 second explosive bursts where I would thrash the bike like a gorilla, lol. I couldn't maintain that level of effort for more than 5 seconds. So you can see that I would never come close to a real peak watts during a 200m sprint. During a typical 200m I would peak at ~1500 when I jumped. When you do hundreds and hundreds of sprints you can really get in tune with the varying intensities levels within what would be considered a sprint. A 5 second jump is TOTALLY different than a 20 second hill sprint or 200m. Now, I sometimes read how riders say they did a sprint up that 1/2mile hill.  Or how runners call a 5k run a sprint run. yeh, I hate that. Sprinting is not anything over 30 seconds, tops. Even 30 seconds is a damn long sprint, barely a sprint in my book.  I did okay with peak numbers, but that's almost the only thing I trained this summer, to see how high I could get. I would like to someday get around 2500. I think it's possible in a few years, if I put aside all those long road rides So I plan on owning a powermeter again someday. But I want to get more powerful before that. I just think it would be super cool to legitimetly say I peak at 2500 I am only 20 yrs old btw, so yes I am a bit younger than you! One thing to add. I garantee you that Marty was capable or more than 2200w peak for one second. Probally in the neighborhood of 2500 if he really tried in ideal conditions, gearing. Watts numbers don't mean much unless the duration and conditions are specified. BTW, have you seen the power profile chart? My best performance was 21w/kg for 5 seconds. (at 85kg) I assume Marty would be 24w/kg, at 100kg, which would be 2400w, and therefore his true one second peak would be ~2600w, a lot more than 2200. Too many numbers! Just go out and sprint!
__________________
"friendship, family, religion. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business!" -Mr. Burns The faster you go, the fewer passing cars
Last edited by velomanct : 23-10.-2005 at 06:46 AM. |
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