Australian Cycling probe

wilmar13

Geesh, either that or someone with some severe emotional development issues!
http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/8203.0.html

EoinC

Without providing proof of a link, this is a Post Hoc logical fallacy (Because one thing follows another, it is held to cause the other) - All heroin addicts consumed milk as children, therefore consumption of milk causes heroin addiction.

EoinC

The claim of a Post Hoc fallacy is because you have argued that, because 2 members of AIS have been shown to have taken Dope...
There is nothing in what you have presented that shows that the AIS led the members to partake in doping. This does not mean that your assertions are untrue, only that you have not proven the connection. The fallacy remains intact until it is proven that the AIS played an active role in this.

wilmar13

Remember trying to debate with LAguppie on the running/cycling thread? I think that may have been more productive EoinC.

EoinC

I think you may be correct, Wilmar. Reading the 2 following posts indicates to me that Flyer does not understand what a fallacy is. I need a little distraction before I continue with my work, however, so I'll jump in again...
Flyer - When I tell you that your argument appears to contain a fallacy, I am not saying that your evidence is false, nor that your conclusion is false. I am saying that your conclusion is not proven by the argument you produced.

Your evidence =
(1) AIS has elite cyclists
(2) Some AIS elite cyclists have been found to partake in doping

Your conclusion = AIS leads members into doping

It may be true, but your argument has not shown the causal link - ie. It is possible for the premises to be true but the conclusion false -It is possible that the elite cyclists could be members of the AIS and partake in doping without the AIS having lead them into it.

VeloFlash

Flyer, you make these statements:

One was caught with Horse Growth Hormones and dozens of spent syringes in his dorm room waste basket. He (Mark French) also was found to have Testicomp in his urine

Wrong. No growth hormones were present to be caught in possession. Only forensic evidence of equinine growth hormones. French admitted to taking vitamins and Testicomp. It was never found by way of a test in his urine. Testicomp, on its label, states it contains glucocorticosteroid. Testicomp has been independently laborotary analysed to find it has only minute traces of glucocorticosteroid at a level providing no performance enhancement and below anti doping breach levels. For this reason, I understand, it was taken off the list. This forms the basis of Mark French's appeal.

Certainly the sprinters are testosterone (Testicomp) overdosed

See above.

These young (aged 16-19) riders were trained, coached and mentored by senior athletes and coaches associated with AIS, and were housed in AIS subsidized facilities.

And neither of these two athletes pointed any finger at the AIS during the process. The only criticism of the AIS came from French's father who believed the AIS had a duty of care with young athletes to ensure they were properly supervised to avoid any senior private drug culture, if it existed.

__________________
VF

"Remember, even if you win the rat race, you are still a rat"

VeloFlash

Flyer, you said:

Now we have Jobie Dajka and fist fights with the National Coach---and doping accusations againts AIS and Australian cycling.

Point us precisely where Dajka outed the AIS as being involved in doping. You can't. You are using poetic licence again.

My life experience is that 16-19 kids, heavily supervised by a National Coach, do not make independent doping decisions.

You are running on from my previous post. The National Coach supervises training not the welfare of the squad outside of training. Hence, the incident with the football (not soccer) match, the vehicle and Dajka's house (note Flyer that Dajka no longer has AIS subsidised lodgings).

My conclusion, is that the AIS has a major appearance problem of doping and that perhaps---it has an unwritten policy requiring doping, else you're cut!

You are now presenting an opinion that cannot be substantiated that the AIS, who prepares athletes for 85 sports, on the basis of two doping convictions has for years ran an unwritten policy of doping encouragement without a single instance of whistle blowing.

Geez, the CIA should start educating themselves into the AIS's process of keeping secrets.

Now that we have seniors and juniors on the record, the AIS is breathing hard to explain why their top riders are misbehaving so.

Another false statement, Flyer. Provide us with a link to your source of the "AIS breathing hard to explain."

And what is 'sledging'. It that what one does after doping?

Nothing whatsoever to do with doping. It is on field (usually team games) of taunting opposition players to throw them off their game.

If Australian cycling is a joke as Jobie Dajka says it is, I am certainly not laughing.

Dajka has admitted himself into hospital with severe psychological problems arising from his sacking from the 2004 Olympic games. Could any reliance be placed on anything Dajka says given his current neurosis, his extreme behaviour and his inevitable departure from the sport?

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VF

"Remember, even if you win the rat race, you are still a rat"