Supplements for Elites

Originally Posted by Chris410

Couple of things I do...

First I have a strict diet, I load carbs prior to workouts and eat accordingly afterwards.

Originally Posted by WarrenG

Too many carbs in the 1-2 hours before training can lead to higher levels of blood lactate during subsequent training. It takes more than 1-2 hours to store carbs as glycogen.

Originally Posted by ric_stern/RST

1 to 1.5 g carbohydrate per kg body mass after a ride with a small amount of protein (maybe 10 grams)



most of the stuff doesn't work



there's some evidence to support the idea of extra antioxidants after training (vits C, E, etc)

you shouldn't really need to take any extra vitamins and minerals, they should be consumed as part of the food you eat (there's a greater requirement for very hard training people to take more vits and mins, but this should be covered with the extra food they eat). however, i sometimes suggest a 100% multi vit and a multi min tablet as 'insurance' (but you'd have to eat a really crap diet to not get everything you need from food).

HMB has no good evidence. no idea what tonalin is. R4 has poor evidence to support it, and it's only the same as most mixed foods

there's no evidence that taking in extra whey/protein/amino is beneficial above the normal recommended amount (usually 1.2 to 1.6 g per kg body mass per day). you'd need a very bizarre diet to not meet this (e.g. you just ate sugar or oil or something else ridiculous)



not sure what CMTs are? there's no evidence yet for Optygen, but there is for one of it's ingredients (sodium phosphate) see http://cyclecoach.com/articles/?art...phates&ext=.htm (but from memory the quantity of phosphate in Optygen is nowhere the same as in the study referenced)



probably best to just eat a good diet ensuring you consume the correct quantities of the various macronutrients for your energy levels. maybe some sodium phosphate for special events (or bicarbonate if you compete in short events < 10-mins), some caffeine and ensuring you are adequately fed and hydrated during training and racing.

ric

Originally Posted by mitosis

Good points.

Most training supplements offer nothing that is not present in large amounts in a balanced diet.

Pay attention to carbs during and after training.

You could buy a new bike with the money saved on supplements.

Originally Posted by shortfuse

Fruits, vegetables not as nutritious as 50 years ago
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/health/261163_veggie01.html

our food is not supplying us like it once did

Originally Posted by shortfuse

Fruits, vegetables not as nutritious as 50 years ago
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/health/261163_veggie01.html

our food is not supplying us like it once did

Originally Posted by mitosis

So eat more of them.

Still cheaper and more satisfying than supplements.

Originally Posted by ric_stern/RST

and given that most people don't have vitamin related deficiences and illness i'm not inclined to believe the previous post (which you were replying to)!

So, to reiterate what we've said before: most supplements are a waste of money, the fact that if you exercise hard you'll most likely increase your food intake and you get the extra vitamins and minerals that way. There's very few supplements that have been shown to have any ergogenic effect (e.g., caffeine, bicarbonate loading, sodium phosphate loading, etc).

The best supplements that people can take are most likely going to be a carbohydrate-electrolyte drink during training and racing.

Ric

Originally Posted by shortfuse

I guess you are one of these people that thinks prescription drugs cure diseases too huh!!!!!
Whole food supplements are not a waste of money only synthetic supplements which are the ones normally used to discredit vitamins in general are used so the statement you made "So, to reiterate what we've said before: most supplements are a waste of money" is false. When you said
"and given that most people don't have vitamin related deficiences and illness"
There are deficiencies out there- they don't become apparant until you get a disease of some kind-

Originally Posted by ric_stern/RST

Well, of course people *do* suffer from vitamin related deficiences, this is likely very apparent in third world countries. It's very unlikely to occur in most places where people will be viewing this forum (e.g., USA, UK, Europe, Australasia, etc), which is why i stated most people don't have vitamin related illnesses.

Perhaps, you could explain what "whole food supplements" are?

Ric

Originally Posted by shortfuse

According to Taber's Medical Dictionary, vitamins are essential for normal metabolism, growth and life of the body.1 They are indispensable for the maintenance of health. Up until now there has been some controversy regarding the necessity to supplement vitamins back into the diet. The Journal of American Medical Association concluded from a study that every individual should take a multivitamin everyday, thus ending that controversy.2

1. Taber's Cyclopedic Medical Dictionary, Edition 16. F.A. Davis Company: Philadelphia,1989, p. 2000.
2. JAMA 2002; 287:3116.

Vitamins are found in food, and just because current growing and processing methods have depleted the vitamins available from our foods, it does not mean that we should come up with new-fangled ways to get these micronutrients from some other source. Instead, we should look for a way to get more of the safe, effective vitamins that are available only from foods.
Let me explain by using vitamin C as an example. Ascorbic acid is often sold as vitamin C, and yet it is only a chemically derived fraction of the whole food vitamin. As it is found in food, vitamin C is a complete complex which is actually made up of ascorbic acid plus rutin, bioflavonoids, K factor and J factors - as well as other substances that no human experiment has been able to replicate. You must have all of these fractions in order for the Vitamin to be complete.



In order for the body to absorb and use a vitamin, all of the parts of the complex must be present. That means that in order to use the fractionated form of the vitamin, the body must first supply the other parts of the whole food complex. If ascorbic acid alone is ingested, the body must complete the complex by robbing its own collagen tissue of the elements that are missing in the "vitamin C" you supplied.

When evaluating a vitamin supplement, you can simply read the label. Rather than multi-syllable, unpronounceable chemical names, you should find the names of foods listed as the vitamin sources.

Remember, next to the name of any vitamin, if you don't see a name of a food or an asterisk leading you to a place on the label that tells you the food source of the vitamins, you are more than likely looking at an inexpensive, processed vitamin that is stripped of all other compounds that are normally present with vitamins that are found in fruits and vegetables.

All information gathered from The Greatest Vitamin in the World website. Hope this helps explain whole food vitamins.
If you need to chat further send me an e-mail at short_fuse_bill@yahoo.com

Originally Posted by mitosis

I don't think anyone is arguing the value of vitamins and minerals.

If you eat a balanced diet you will have much more than recommended daily intake of every vitamin and mineral.

Which means if you are buying and consuming extra water soluble vitamins (like C) you are paying good money to put vitamin C in your urine.

Some people who have diseases that affect their ability to absorb vitamins (like coeliacs disease) or who lose minerals in excess of normal (like women who have heavy periods lose more iron than normal) may benefit from supplements but in general they are unnecessary.