Supplements for Elites

c_record

I think what the original post was getting at was not just the increased kilojoule intake but the different style of diet.

When you require a massive daily kilojoule intake of a elite cyclist, you can not eat a normal style of diet. My breakfast, lunch and dinner are the same (although larger) as the rest of my family - but they do not consume the large amounts of carbohydrates like myself whilst training and snacking. These additionals kilojoules are all carbohydrates in the form of sports drinks or carb bars and have little other nutrients. A protein/ carb drink is used to bolster total protein intake (and kilojoule).

This means that i dont consume any more vitamins and minerals than the rest of my family whilst consuming twice the kilojoule intake. My body is also involved in twice the workload.

An athlete training 20 hrs per week can not consume a normal "diet", have you seen the recommended diets from the AIS for Road Cyclists. I recieved a personalised one whilst attending the Oceania Games as a junior. My daily diet was filled with empty calories! It contained soft drink, honey, etc at nearly every meal - just to try and digest enough energy for the day.

Vegetables and fruit have undoubted health benefits - but I just dont have room!!

4:1 protein carb ratio is well established as the optimum ratio for a recovery drink.

Roadie_scum

Where's your study buddy? And why not come round and eat tuna+beans on bread with some salad instead? Tastes better.

Roadie_scum

So how, exactly, would you know who requires supplementation? Oh that's right, everyone...



And for that 3-6 months, will you be training? Might you get sick? How many participants are we looking at having here to take out other variables? N=1 is not going to be particularly reliable.



I don't think this shows what you claim at all. A large portion majority of the population are obese, unhealthy, and physically incapable of riding for an hour. I don't that a study including this portion of the population demonstrates it is 'hard' for athletes who might pay a little attention to their diets to tend to their nutritional needs through a balanced diet consisting mainly of FOOD.



I'm sure you love them when n=1 and no variables are controlled. Or ones that can be skewed and viewed outside the context of the other literature to support your point of view.



But you're sponsored by a vitamin company? Or your close friend and relative works for one?

craigyfish

It is interesting to see the varied responses to this thread. So many people adamant they are right and so many variations in what works for who.

At the end of the day the use of supplements is a personal thing; while it is fine to say what works for you or a majority, it does not work for everyone and certainly not in the same way.

The first area to cover is to ensure that your calorific intake covers your calorific expenditure while training, however this varies depending on whether you are trying to lose weight while riding. In most cases weight loss can be attributed to dehydration and not calorie deficits. If no weight loss is desired it is best to ensure that your diet contains most of the calories you need.

The next step is to determine when you ride, what you can eat beforehand and what energy sources will be predominantly used while training. For those of you who don't know, the body will burn carbs first, then fat, then protein.

Your body's source of carbs is limited and on long rides will be used up completely. In this situation, energy drinks and gels are required to supplement the body's store during riding. These supplements need to be divided into fast sources and sustained release sources.

After training, at least five things are highly likely:

1. The body's source of carbs has been depleted - SOLUTION: Eat a high carb small meal within 20 - 30min of finishing. Break you diet into 5 - 6 small meals a day.
2. The intense effort or duration of the training will have damaged muscles with lactic accumulation and in some cases the the body will have started to break down protein for energy - Lance Armstrong follows a specific strength training program during the winter as he will lose lean muscle mass during the racing season. - SOLUTION: A recovery drink, I personally use SIS Rego but everyone's tastes are different. The recovery drink needs to be protein based. There are lots of other supplements that help aid recovery - some evidence of creatine monohydrate, chondroitin, MSM, glutamine.
3. The next thing is that intense exercise lowers the immune system, a negative effect of training that all athletes fear. An increase in free radicals has some effect and therefore many athletes take 1000 - 2000mg of Vitamin C a day. In addition to this there are a host of vitamin supplements, but the main point is that these must not substitute of diet they are to supplement. I use Vit C and Maximol solution (multivitamin tonic) as well as Echinaecia and Cod liver oil. The cod liver oil supplies the body with essential fatty acids that help the joiints.
4. Dehydration is a huge problem and many athletes think they have drunk enough and haven't. Keep drinking even after exercise and watch the colour of your urine to determine you hydration levels, dark yellow and you're dehydrated. Avoid caffeine as this can suppress thirst.
5. Finally, probably the most ignored recovery aid is REST. A little snooze after training helps the body recover, listen to your body if it feels tired rest, keep an eye out for signs of overtraining.

I know many of you know alot of this but those who don't, don't get tied up in the world of supplements, the main problem is the expense. Experiment and find what works for you, watch the five things above, deal with them and you are 80% there.

I'm sure there are many who may disagree with the points I've made but I don't think anyone will disagree with the fact that supplements can be so costly that you need to find a nutrition system that works for you and stick to it.

Train smart race safe
Craigyfish

Roadie_scum

You make some good points craigyfish, but there are some glaring errors too.



Actually lipolysis (fat burning), and glycolysis (carb burning) occur simultaneously. Lipolysis is lower after glycogen depletion, so you will have a harder time burning fat with no carbs on board.



Fast sources and sustained release sources? What do you mean? Sucrose, glucose, maltose and maltodextrins are all utilised quickly. Lactose and fructose are processed less efficiently and therefore don't make particularly good sources of fuel to take on board during exercise. Is this what you're getting at?

Also, you shouldn't completely exhaust your bodies glycogen stores during exercise. Eat properly during exercise to avoid this.



Protein based recovery drinks are OK, and there's nothing wrong with drinking them if you particularly like them, but I don't see what they have over and above any other source of protein. Unless you particularly like recovery drinks, or are worried about impoverished supplement company owners, I'd say you should feel free to indulge in a sandwich or pasta with some meat or fish, or some other carb/protein mix.



The most important thing to avoid illness is avoiding glycogen depletion. The dose of vitamin C you are recommending is bordering on irresponisible, although there are some arguments for a small amount of supplementation. It does stun me the doses that many supplement companies try to sell people.



What? Evidence?



I'd agree with the not getting tied up in supplement use. The other problem is the not working. There are some exceptions, but try talking to a well qualified sports med doc. If he/she looks bemused, worried, or laughs when you ask about your program of supplementation, it's a waste of money.



Indeed

rholly

This is a very interesting thread. I expected more people to actually state what they take. I take the following. It is supposedly what many of the US Olympic teams take.

I take this daily
http://www.usana.com/en/products/us...YPES_40613.html

And This
http://www.usana.com/en/products/us...DUCT_51973.html

And This
http://www.zonelabsinc.com/servlet/...bsComController

My father is a doctor and for years subscribed to the "you get all you need from food". In the past 5 years through extensive research he has altered his opinion to beleive in vitamins. This regimen is what he has had me on for a couple of years.

I would be interested in anyone on the forum who knows alot about supplements to give me their opinion about what I am taking.

Thanks,

__________________
"The Empires of the Future are the Empires of the Mind" - Sir Winston Churchill

shortfuse

WELL SAID Daniel

jeff828

I have wondered that myself. Here in the US I see adults & kids every morning picking up a bag of chips & a coke or breakfast at Mc Donalds then lunch consists of pizza or hitting the snack vending machine or skipping it completely and dinner........a sandwich, going to a restaurant for a meal that has so much fat, salt, grease, a zillion calories, and don’t forget the dessert.

In the US most people do not eat correct & do not exercise and they are not suffering from a vitamin deficiency. They are suffering though from diabetes, high blood pressure, obesity, chronic pains, heart attack, strokes, etc., all due to there eating incorrectly but still never heard the diagnosis of "you have this because you didn’t get enough vitamins."

I guess everyone who wears glasses like me, is because we didnt eat enough carrots, I was told they good for your eyes when I was younger.

What happened to the notion that our bodies have a limit to how much it can use of a certain nutrient and the excess is just disposed of.

WarrenG

1000-2000mg of C is nowhere near "irresponsible". 3-4 times that amount might be. I've taken 1-2grams a day during training for years and on the odd day I forget I'm often reminded with a bit of DOMS.

Have a look at magnesium. The RDA is about 400mg. I went to websites that tell how much magnesium is in foods and it's not easy to get even the RDA, which is quite likely less than what athletes would like to have. Magnesium glycinate is a well-absorbed form of mg, no stomach or digestion issues at all, and it's inexpensive. KAL is a good brand.

The balance between potassium, calcium and magnesium in muscle and certain types of cells is important so make sure you're not below a minimum for any of these three.

athletekitch

Megadosing with vit C - even at your low levels of 1-2000mg - leads to symptoms of scurvy - bleeding gums and cracked lips - if stopped suddenly. Reason for this higher dosages lead to increased turnover of the nutrient thereby you are actually increasing the bodies demand for vit C. The fat sol vits are alsos tored within adipose tissue and may lead to toxicity if megadosed. Ric is perfectly right and is in line with the respected peer reviewed experts that facilitate the performance of the elite professional athlete. The supplement industry essentially sells pseudo-science to convince regular athletes such as ourselves to buy their product because they know regular athletes dont have the access to the "smart" advice of these elite dietitians. So think about what you are saying and investigate further because the info is out there and provides well rounded research and reviews.

__________________
Jason Kitchen BSc
Managing Director/Chief Dietitian
Athletes Kitchen Ltd

WarrenG

Yeah sure. When I'm not training I don't take much C at all, if any. Yet, by some miracle your little notion has never come true. Nor has it come true for anyone I know who does the same. Talk about "pseudo-science". Next.

athletekitch

Which begs the question "how good was your supplement?" Ive encountered this problem several times and indeed it has increased in recent months. Several clients were consuming 3000mg per day and reported scurvy symptoms when dose reduced to normal levels.

__________________
Jason Kitchen BSc
Managing Director/Chief Dietitian
Athletes Kitchen Ltd

Chris410

Couple of things I do...

First I have a strict diet, I load carbs prior to workouts and eat accordingly afterwards.

As for suppliments I take branch-chained amino acids, L-glutamine, vitamin pack, N20 blast (just started so I don't have a lot of feedback yet). I also take glucosamine in addition to zinc/magnesium. So far with the building miles in progress my recovery has been VERY satisfactory even though the last time I raced Cat III was back in 1990 so I'm playing catch up!

There's another suppliment I am researching and I'll get you the info as soon as I finish getting more input. Good topic and I hope to get some info considering the fact that I'm a "returning" racer so it's going to be tough to get back to where I once was but it's a welcomed challenge.

WarrenG

Keep dreaming. I've taken various brands of C of 1-2 grams daily during the last 10+ years I've been racing. Many, many others do the same without getting scurvy. Your "clients" were consuming more than that, and if they weren't active athletes in training maybe they weren't utilizing it the same way.