Supplements for Elites

Daniel.lloyd

The link doesn't work, you need to be a member to view it - any chance you could copy and paste it and send it to me in an email? I'd be interested tin reading it. - daniellloyd100@hotmail.com

Thanks, Daniel.

ric_stern/RST

you don't need to be a member to read it (as far as i'm aware, as i'm not). unless it's just enter your email address type member thing. anyway, failing that, just go the med sci web site http://www.ms-se.com/ and click "position stands" and you should be able to get to it from there.

ric

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CatSpin

Wow...look what I started.

Just kidding members. In an effort to refocus, below is a reprint of the original postscript I left on Post #1.

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"PS - You either believe in taking supplement or you don't. If you don't, please reserve your "no comments" to allow for room for an open discussion for athletes who feel that their performance will benefit with supplements."

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While not to discourage the debate, "to take supplements or not", this post was designed to solicit feedback from athletes who are convinced that they do help. That being said, a summary of supplements entertained in this thread is:

Originally posted/questioned by CatSpin

Multivitamins
Calcium, Magnesium and Zinc
HMB
Endurox R4 or similar product
Gluatmine
Whey Protein Shakes

Members added the following:

Creatine / Creatine Serum
Sodium Phosphate
Arginine


Seems like this is a good list for me and other members (perhaps) to start researching. While, in theory, obtaining all such nutrients from food would be optimal, practice makes it very difficult. Fair to say that such supplements are short-cuts for perfect nutrition but when a nice leafy green veggie is not available nor the leanest cut of chicken is on your plate, I would argue that supplements do have there place in both the part-time and full-time athlete's diet.

The reason for this post was to continue to research this "list" of frequently discussed supplements for cyclists. This list should have not been viewed as NEW from anyone racing or training hard. Carmichael, Burke and Friel have written about these supplements at one time or another in their literature...if so, then why. My guess is that they do have an effect on the body of a cycling athlete.

If you would like to add one that this post may have missed, please continue to reply.

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ric_stern/RST

often, it's very difficult to know if they *actually* helped. with a substance that causes a huge gain in performance (e.g. rhEpo) the actual magnitude of increase in performance is only ~ 10%. generally, with some of the other ergogenic aids the gains are much smaller. thus, without carefully controlled randomised, placebo, double blind crossover studies you just aren't going to know... most of the research on the above list shows no ergogenic benefit to these substances.

off your list you missed
caffiene, sodium bicarbonate, carbohydrates

off the top of my head, the three above, plus phosphate, electrolyte-carb drinks, creatine for sprint events only (and even then the data is pretty equivocal) are ergogenic. i've probably missed something, but, hey it's late!

Ric

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millerms06

Greetings,

I love this topic alot. Not only do we get some interesting information from people, but we also get alot of opinion making as well. I have been racing for seven years, and as that might not be alot for many, I like most have tried alot of things to ingest. None I can say have ever been illegal performance enhancers, because I believe that if you need something like that your in for alot of bad reputation for the rest of your life. Besides being a "doper" makes you rely on that paticular drug, and I do follow UCI's doping regulations even though I am not a pro licensed rider. Anywho, I have tried Optygen, Endurox, Creatine, Protein supplements, multivitamin double dosings (I was in the counter culture of taking certain minerals and vitamins more than the RDA), you name it I have invested in it. But through it all I have found one thing that I didn't invest in; the sole confidence of how my body truely performs. I do believe in the etiquette of working your ass off on your bike. Believe it or not, most of you can attest to this, pain is something we feel at certain times on the bike. Devouring one's pain threshhold demands hours on the bike. For some it is easy because there pain tolerance is quite high compared to most, and others are psychologically stronger than others (another key factor in racing as I have found).

Proper diet can be achieved, it isn't far fetched of a concept. I agree with Ric on this factor. foods like vegetables, whole grains (yes whole wheat you white bread consumers), fish, flax seed and legumes have everything the body needs. We do get more benefits from foods that are not biproducts, that is a fact of life. In fact I don't eat bread at all, I add whole wheat milled bran to just about every meal I have, yes just the ground bran. I have been tackling this problem and have been a very hardcore advocate with this topic because I feel people don't stick to their "good ways" when it comes to eating. My biggest advice to anyone is to cook for yourself, never eat out or let someone cook for you. That may sound harsh when you have to go to your inlaws for dinner, but then you will actually know what is in your food. I cook all the time because I want the things that I eat to be as "Natural and Nutrional" for my body and I don't want additives that my body doesn't need.

Probablly the biggest way to find out what we lack through our eating is to get your dieting analyzed. I have the benefit of having diet analysis programs available because I am a college student. Most of you would have to go to a dietician or better yet contact a college to see if you could be analyzed as part of a student's study. From the program I am able to find out what minerals and vitamins I consume and what needs to be upped. To find out truely what you lack in, you must do this. You will only be wasting your money in supplements you don't need. And what about if I want to eat something different than what I analyzed? Get used to eating what works and then you won't have to worry about eating other things, afterall, we are sticklers to have a workout plan, why not having an eating plan?

Now vitamins, do they really get used by the body? We all know that what when we ingest something it gets absorbed but how much? Only what the body needs or lacks, meaning you have to get a analysis of your diet . Anything the body doesn't need it flushes out, and anything the body can't digest will get extracted. To check and see if any pill you consume is digested by the body, do this: Place vinegar in a glass and drop your test pill into it. If it starts to disolve and can be disolved completely, that means that the pill can be broken down by the body's enzymes. Not many people know of this and if you do I apologize for the inofrmation. But if you really believe a multivitamin or any pill works, makes sure you know it can be digested and used instead of being "flushed out", and only speculating that it helps.

That is probably the last thing to say, everything supplement that you believe in or use probably doesn't even work. I can guarantee that only a fraction of what you consume in the form of these so called "wonder pills and powders", are used and consumed by the body. And you know why? Because your body works on its own and when it doesn't need it you expell it through bodily fluids and through fecal matter. So get your diet analyzed and then decide what you need. Then you will be fifty percent on your way to seeing results, the other fifty comes from working your ass off

Sincerely,
Matt Miller

P.S. If I offended anyone in anyway shape or form, I sincerely apologize. But if you analyze your diet I can assure you it will offend you more than my words will ever do.

xc_gumby

supplements are a con!

Let there be flame....

(Oh, BTW, did you know that a significant number of amino acid supplements are "contaminated" with a pre-cusor to Nandralone... Can't remember what the supplement in question was, but the "contamination" converts to nandralone in the body. Its was something like 14% of supplements tested).

ric_stern/RST

some supplements are good/useful/needed/etc. for e.g. there's unequivocal data that carbohydrate drinks etc improve peformance.

there's lots of good research data pointing the way with certain supplements (and some supplements are good for one sport but not another -- e.g. bicarbonate loading)

ric

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ric_stern/RST

This is the advice from the AIS (Australian Institute of Sport), i'm sure most governing bodies advise similarly (as i do).

AIS SPORTS SUPPLEMENT PROGRAM FACT SHEET
9: Multivitamins and Minerals

AIS Choice: Centrum

Supplement Overview

Athletes who restrict their total energy intake or dietary variety are at risk of an inadequate intake of vitamins and minerals.
There is no evidence that supplementation with vitamins and minerals enhances performance except in cases where a pre-existing deficiency exists.
(C) ASC

Ric

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CatSpin

OK....I am listening and thinking.

If all can be accomplished by food, what does an Athlete need to consume to weather the excessive demands ( I don't think there will be a debate on that) from training and racing.

If one were to drop all supplements and go straight to food, how can one educate himself on the types and dosages of food needed to ensure they are "getting it all in". PLUS, I would suppose all this extra eating would be to aid in the replacement of cetain types of vits and minerals...if so which. Besides carbs and fats, what does the body burn off in excess that, if not replaced, can hinder performance and recovery.

There are balanced diets for the sedintary person and a balanced diet for an athlete....right?

Learning,

CatSpin

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ric_stern/RST

just to reiterate, for racing cyclists (or any competing athletes), then supplements are useful. however, the magnitude of difference they may make might be quite limited (i.e. if you're not good to start with they won't make you a winner).

however, by and large a lot of the time supplements (with the exception of sports drinks) may not need to be used.

sure, there's an increase in energy expenditure with any form of training (compared to being sedentary), but i don't feel the big increases in diet/or lots of supplements are always needed.

i'd imagine that most people here (with the exception of Daniel Lloyd) aren't full time cyclists so, as such are probably limited to ~ 15 hr/week maximum.

that sort of training frequency/volume is catered for with a normal diet in larger quantities (and slight more carbs). in fact, even for a FT athlete, the recommendation is to eat similar proportions of food to a normal persons diet (but bigger quantities and to aim for slightly more carbs).

For up to ~ 15 hr/wk you'd be looking at consuming 5 to 8 g of carbohydrate per kg body mass per day, 1.2 to 1.6 g protein per kg body mass per day, and around 1 g fat per kg body mass per day. For FT athletes the carbs go to 8 to 12 g/kg body mass, protein 1.2 to 2.0 g/kg body mass, and fat about the same. This is the same for males and females.

for a 70 kg person (154 lb for you old fashioned non-metric types!) the ~ 15 hr/wk diet works out at:

Carbs 350 to 560 g per day (1400 to 2240 kcal/day)
protein 84 to 112 g per day (336 to 448 kcal/day)
fat ~70 g per day (630 kcal/day)

that's 2366 kcal to 3318 kcal per day, with ratios of 59/14/27 to 68/14/19 for each macronutrient

the ranges presented would obviously change with your training days and subsequent and prior days (i.e. if you had a couple of short easy rides, you'd be at the lower end of the scale, and if you did a few long, tough session you'd be at the upper end of the scale or maybe in the FT one if for e.g. you had a few days off work etc and got in some big rides).



"dosages" above. a good mixed diet including a veggie one will provide all the right bits. pasta, rice, potatoes, bread, cous cous as your main starchy staples, fresh fruit, veg, lean proteins, grains, pulses, etc. if you're not used to eating this much food you'll almost certainly need to supplement with sports drinks for the carbohydrates (and/or use when training).

hope that helps.
ric

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Lasalles

The AIS will reccomend anything that is supplied to them for free... Swisse multivitamin & mineral is far better than Centrum.

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ric_stern/RST

as far as i'm aware the AIS do a lot of research into ergogenic aids.

that being said, as i've pointed out and as the ACSM and AIS mention none of the vit/minerals do much if anything and aren't generally warranted for use.

ric

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Cru_Jones

Endurox is great, I also drink Nitro-Tech Protein and add some extra L-Glutamine for good measure. The Nitro-Tech is pretty spendy, but all my weight lifter friends swear by it. It's actually helped me loose some weight, great meal replacement...or just helps you eat a smaller meal and feel full. Drink it right ater you get off the bike. Makes your calories count.

I also take a mulit, B Complex, E, C, oils, and Q-10.

Needless to say I pee yellow.

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winchaos

I own a bike shop and find that people want a fix that will let them get performance results with shoddy diet and training practices. There is no magic pill but there are things that can help you get the most out of your training.

That being said I use or have used a number of products over the years and while most are useless, a few have had measurable results ( I use a power meter and heart rate monitor so if something has a quick effect I can measure it rather than go just by feel. More on this in a second).

The hardest effect to quantify is for supplements assisting recovery. I think these are the most important for any athlete as you only make progress once you recover. I can say though that a couple of times I've missed taking my recovery soup, and the next day simply getting out of bed was an ordeal forget about training. So without further ado here's what I have found works and has science to back it up.

- Recovery drink - Whether you use Endurox r4 or make your own, if you've been out training intensely you need to get a high glycemic index carb and easily digested protein in your system the minute you step off the bike. Research has indicated a 4:1 carb-protein ratio is best so that's how I go. Your serving size will vary with your size. 20 grams of carb per 40 lbs of body weight unless you've got a lot of body fat. I make my own with dextrose, whey protein, 5 grams of glutamine ( shown to have immune boosting and anti-catabolic properties) and take an anti-oxydant vitamin. I use this type of formula instead of food as the body absorbs it quicker, it's easier to get your ratios right and I don't feel like eating after a ride. In addition drink a pile of water after training and through out the day. In addition to a recovery drink, if you've been out for over 2 hours or just been in a race then you can increase glycogen stores by eating 20 grams of carbs every 15 minutes for the two hours after training. The muscles are primed to take in nutrients after training so make sure you feed them.

- Anti oxident formula - There's a lot of research showing the oxidive damage caused by training and pollution so it just makes sense to add to your diet. I eat my fruit and veggies plus supplement with an anti oxident vitamin/mineral formula plus green tea, cordyceps and rhodiola rosea.

- gels and drinks while training. This ones old but by eating on the bike you have more energy and get less glycogen depletion. By using products that have carbs, a little protein (10%), electrolytes (sodium, potassium, magnesium) plus fluids I find I can train longer and harder and recover quicker. I use the hammer line of products. mainly the gels plus sustained energy. They have a new product perpeteum that I'm looking forward to cause it's supposed to taste like orange creamcicle. yum

- Flax oil - while there are many benefits of this stuff the one that endurance athletes need to be aware of is you need essential fatty acids (EFA) to use body fat as fuel. Flax is high in the EFAs that are deficient in the north american diet. Plus it has immune boosting and heart protecting benefits.

- Cordyceps and Rhodiola Rosea - Some of you might be aware these are the main ingredients in Optygen. I buy them separtately as it's much cheaper. The research is promising on many health benefits but little reseach has been done on the combination as it applies to athletic performance. I decided to try them based on optygens claims. What I found was that after using them for about a week I was recording lower heart rates at the same power out put (140 instead of 155 at 190 watts for 60 minutes) and I recovered quicker between individual intervals and between workouts. So for $30CAN per month it seems like a good investment considering the other heath benefits. (To find out about this or other products go to www.pubmed.com and do a search for the ingredient your interested in. most of it is studies are on treating illness but there is a lot of stuff that can be useful to us athletes. )

- Whey protein - I use protein because if I just eat a high carb diet I get fat, plus whey has lots of research behind it on boosting immune function. I'm a big beleiver in strengthening the immune system any way we can cause a sick athlete can train.

That's what I found actually works so that's what I use.

Happy Trails

Win