slim fast for recovery drink

ric_stern/RST

Originally posted by Ted B, i responded with >>

To summarize what I know, you want to initiate a strong insulin response as soon as possible following exercise, which causes a rapid regeneration of a portion of the spent glycogen. You want to get about 1g/lb bodyweight of high glycemic index carbs (bagels, potatoes, honey, rice, sports drinks, etc.)

>>the actual recommendation is 1.0 to 1.5 g/kg body mass of carbs after heavy exercise


Carbs/Protein = 4:1 ratio (stuff snipped)
I strongly suggest getting a copy of "Serious Cycling" by the late Edmund Burke, Ph.D. It is very well researched, and contains a very informative section on this topic - worth the purchase price alone.

>>much as i respect(ed?) Ed, the 4:1 ratio is a tiny bit misleading. Although carbs and protein after exercise *are* good, there's only one study (that i'm aware of, or at least when the book came out) showing that 4:1 was good. In other words no one has tested any other ratios, so we don't know if this is the best ratio.

Ric

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Ted B

True, but protein (and fat as well) stimulates CCK, which slows gastric emptying (slows rehydration) and inhibits appetite. While it is claimed to be demonstrated that the ratio I quoted will not cause the aforementioned effect, it makes no guarantees for a higher protein ratio. Rest assured that as a strength athlete, I am inclined (by habit) to consume more protein, but I have found that eating substantially more protein does in fact inhibit my appetite, which makes it more difficult for me to replenish my carbs.

dhk

I've also found the same effect with protein. In fact, the key to my weight loss this year has been simply to eat 20-25 gms of quality protein at each meal, watch the carbs and junk fat, and cut out desserts. Now that the weight is where I want it and I'm riding a lot more, I'll specifically try the post-recovery carbs as soon as I get off the bike.

Should I do this after an "easy" ride also? My easy ride is wearing my HRM, and ride an easy hour at 66% of max HR, only hitting 75% for a couple of minutes on the hill back to my house. Do I need the same quantity of carbs? Suppose if I've burned 600 calories on this ride, eating 75 gms is only putting back about half of what I spent on the ride.

Appreciate the fine discussion here. This is a timely topic for me. I've been increasing my mileage, and riding harder because it feels good, but now am running into some recovery issues.

Dan

2LAP

I don't think ric was suggesting that you ate more protein (i.e. >4 to 1). Rather based on rics calculations of 1 to 1.5 g per kg and 10 g of protein....

I would consume between 60 and 90 g of carbs and 10 g of protein.... a ratio of 6 to 1 or even 9 to 1.

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Ted B

During low to moderate exercise, you're burning mostly glycogen and some fat simultaneously. This is why it takes much exercise (and time) to lose a little fat at a time. Fat is only utilized during aerobic exercise, and is used at a slower pace because it's not as easy to convert to energy. If you run low on glycogen, you bonk, and your body begins to metabolize muscle as well (not desirable). That being said, depriving your body of adequate glycogen is not beneficial. Where weight loss is concerned, you need enough carbs to replenish glycogen for the next round of exercise, but not an excess. in your case, knowing the difference between sufficient and excess is the key.

Insulin is inhibitory to burning fat, which is why diets like the Atkins Diet are effective for weight loss. Keep the insulin levels low during regular eating, and you'll burn more fat during exercise. If you are going to stress glycogen levels with daily doses of lengthy exercise however, you'll need to replenish glycogen quickly. Studies show that if you start this process immediately following the cessation of exercise, you'll be replenished much more quickly than if you delay. Yes, this involves an insulin response, but you only need to do this once or twice following exercise. Your regular meals for the rest of the day and until your next round of exercise should contain only low glycemic index carbs (keeping your insulin level low), and only in the minimum amount you need to function normally (feel good). Also, a diet high in protein stimulates glucagon synthesis, which inhibits insulin and improves fat metabolism.

Just remember that what you eat immediately post exercise and what you eat the rest of the time should follow different rules - if you are going to exercise again the very next day. Since 'post exercise' is only 2-4 hours of a 24 hour day, it won't upset your diet and will actually give you the glycogen you need to exercise repeatedly, which enables you to burn more fat.

Whew!

dhk

Ted, that all makes sense to me. Understand the key is to restore the carbs at the right time, and not to go overboard.

I had been riding after lunch lately, and then eating nothing until supper about 3-4 hours later. Today, went out earlier and had lunch after the ride. Had about 50 g carb from rye bread, a slice of deli ham, a slice of cheese, and an orange. Will see how these little changes work for me.

Have also ordered a couple of the Ed Burke books...Serious Cycling and Long Distance Riding. Now that I'm retired and have the time to train, want to make sure I'm doing it right.

Thanks for the detailed reply.

Dan

dhk

OK, have read Serious Cycling. Found it to be a quick read with some content I'd seen before, but still a good basic primer.

At any rate, the book's (well-known) nutrition advice appears to be working for me. This week, have specifically consumed more pre-ride, on-bike and recovery carbs, and seem to be recovering much better now. Did a ride today with a tandem and another solo rider, faster than my usual training pace. I took a full-strength Gatorade bottle, instead of my usual water. Sipping it slowly every 10 minutes or so over the 2 hours, no problem at all with the sugar. HR was mostly 80% and up for two hours, and 92-93% on the final climb for about 15 minutes.

One of the riders I was with uses Cytomax. He also mixes his own maltodextrin-based drink at home. Think I'll get a sample of Cytomax, and maybe a bag of malto-dextrin and give it a try next.

Dan

zaskar

if you can get past the taste of cytomax it's not bad, once
it warms it taste like spoiled milk. gotorade for me works
just as well. i cut my sugar intake a lot the last few months
and i think my riding suffered a little from it. i bought a few
energy gels to try (cliff shots) made of brown rice syrup,
raspberry puree, citric acid, sea salt,potassium citrate,
magnesium oxide. these for me has made a world of
difference when i go hard, i have broke my personal time
tt's with these. also just eating a cookie or 2 makes a
difference, why are you so against sugar?? thats
what potatos turns to once eatin. slim fast for me is
a quick fix in route home from long hard rides, once home
it's whey protien & good high carb foods.

dhk

Well, cutting sugar and hi-gly carbs from the diet has been the key to major weight loss for me this year. But, now agree sugar or other hi-gly carb do really help on the bike. And the Gatorade mix worked fine for me also yesterday, just a sip every 10-15, a 20 oz H20 bottle over two hours made the difference.

In the past, I've only used Gatorade by drinking a cold 16 oz bottle in 5-10 minutes at mid-ride rest stops. That gave me a mild headache, and left me crashing 30-45 minutes later. Dumb, huh?

Dan

zaskar

hey DAN, you think thats dumb i use to ride with just water
only!! and i wondered why i couldnt ride past 2 hours in
the hot desert when i was mtb. also thats why i cut alot
of sugar for wieght loss, i use to think as long as i ride hard
i can eat anything i want and still lose the weight! i did
lose the wieght but could not get to the desired wieght
target, fats dropping off me so fast right now its kinda scary,
my lowest wieght i was able to get to before changing my diet
was 155lbs im now down to 148lbs, my up hill speeds have
gone up 3-4 miles per hour!!

dhk

Yep, I dropped 45 lbs this year, down to 168 now. At 6 ft, this is as light as I've been since college in the 60's. It does make a big difference up hill, as well as overall comfort on the bike.

Dan

Ted B

Atkins Diet = Common sense guidelines for a healthy lifestyle amidst a world of junk food, and *essential* for a sedentary person to avoid becoming overweight.

For those of us who engage in physical activity of this type, the Atkins diet rules do not apply just before, during, and just after long, strenuous aerobic exercise.

The mental consolation here is you need to burn glycogen to burn fat, so keep the pedals turning.

ric_stern/RST

Atkins diet is not common sense guidelines for a healthy lifestyle. period.

ric

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Ted B

I only know the basics of the Atkins Diet, so allow me to specify:

The minimization of unnecessary high glycemic and refined sugars, and other foods that provide nothing but 'empty calories' from one's diet is a common sense guideline for a healthy lifestyle.