Difficulty reaching target heart rate

sanmi

Ric,

Then you have a complete different physiology than most mortals.
I repeat: Under Normal physiological conditions it is not possible to have such a change in 20 b/m at same workloads. It is Impossible. And I repeat under NORMAL PHYSIOLOGICAL conditions ruling out the pointes I stated before.

ric_stern/RST

Well, i'm very mortal and it does happen. and i see it in other riders too.


Ric

__________________
http://www.cyclecoach.com

sanmi

That variation in 20 b/m Under normal physiological conditions is NOT possible at same workloads performed days apart. I can see months, mayve weeks, ofcourse due to training, but not within days.

sorry

ric_stern/RST

Sorry, i'm not talking about a training effect (as you too have stated).

Two places i see this happen
1) back to back days of either one-hour TTs or 'hard' RRs (hard being a relative term for the person competing in them)

2) during TT type training under varying conditions of fatigue
a) rested state at constant workload HR is xxx b/min
b) same constant workload done in later in a session, suffering a bit HR is xxx+ ~10 b/min
c) same constant workload towards the end of an over reaching period HR is xxx - ~10 b/min

Chronic fatigue and/or glycogen depletion isn't present as the same high workload is being maintained

Ric

__________________
http://www.cyclecoach.com

sanmi

As you stated this, I am right with what I said about same constant workload and HR. same constant workolad overtime elicits different physiological parameters (included HR). That´s why at the end of traininng you had to suffer more and had Higher HR at the same workload. Same for your parameters of an over reaching period.

But you have not still stated that e.g. a test performed today will have a difference of 20b/m if done 48 h later. (the same test performed under same physiologycal conditions)

ric_stern/RST

i have stated that, as point one.

"1) back to back days of either one-hour TTs or 'hard' RRs (hard being a relative term for the person competing in them)"

That's about ~24-hrs apart

__________________
http://www.cyclecoach.com

sanmi

Rick, this might help you.



Int J Sports Med. 1992 Aug;13(6):467-70. Related Articles, Links


Day to day variation in time trial cycling performance.

Hickey MS, Costill DL, McConell GK, Widrick JJ, Tanaka H.

Human Performance Laboratory, Ball State University, Muncie, IN 47306.

In an attempt to assess the reproducibility of laboratory cycling performance, eight well-trained (VO2max = 4.6 +/- 0.2 l.min-1) male cyclists completed 12 trials involving 4 successive performance rides at each of three total work outputs (approximately 1600, 200, and 14 kilojoules, respectively). These trials, designated as long, medium, and short trials (LT, MT, ST), represented exercise bouts of 105.12 +/- 0.41, 12.03 +/- 0.17 and 0.55 +/- 0.11 minutes, respectively. The trials, conducted on a computerized cycle ergometer in an isokinetic mode, were separated by a minimum of 72 hrs. All trials for each subject were completed at the same time of day. In all trials, subjects were allowed to select the pace in order to complete the ride in the shortest possible time. The mean coefficient of variation (CV) for performance time in each trial was: LT = +/- 1.01%, MT = +/- 0.95%, and ST = +/- 2.43%, respectively. The CV for performance time in ST was significantly greater than the CV in either LT or MT. In LT, performance time was significantly faster, and the mean % VO2max was significantly higher in trial 4 versus trials 1-3. There was no order effect in the MT or ST rides. The CV for mean VO2 (l.min-1), mean % VO2max, and RER during the LT rides were +/- 3.02%, +/- 3.64%, and +/- 3.53%, respectively. These data suggest that trained cyclists have the ability to reproduce endurance performance with a CV of approximately 1.0% in a time-trial protocol.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

PMID: 1428377 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

ric_stern/RST

and the point of that abstract is?

__________________
http://www.cyclecoach.com

sanmi

These data suggest that trained cyclists have the ability to reproduce endurance performance with a CV of approximately 1.0% in a time-trial protocol.

You suggest that it could be up to 20% variability!. And I say again It is NOT pssible under normal physiological conditions.

You also talk about ---"back to back days of either one-hour TTs or 'hard' RRs (hard being a relative term for the person competing in them)".---- But, you are not talking about Repeatibilty. A TT is way different than a RR. you cannot compare parameters. I don´t quite understand what you meant with the back to back days thing.

sanmi

Note on the abstract:
a CV means "Coeficient of Variation"

ric_stern/RST

being a sports scientist i know what CV means...

(Not that only sports scientists know what that means)

__________________
http://www.cyclecoach.com

ric_stern/RST

Originally posted by sanmi, responded with >>

These data suggest that trained cyclists have the ability to reproduce endurance performance with a CV of approximately 1.0% in a time-trial protocol.

>>yes, i haven't disagreed

You suggest that it could be up to 20% variability!. And I say again It is NOT pssible under normal physiological conditions.

>>only 20% variable if my HR max was 100 b/min (which it isn't).

>>performance was the same in the study and with me.


You also talk about ---"back to back days of either one-hour TTs or 'hard' RRs (hard being a relative term for the person competing in them)".---- But, you are not talking about Repeatibilty. A TT is way different than a RR. you cannot compare parameters. I don´t quite understand what you meant with the back to back days thing.

>>i know that a TT is different to a RR!!! i said that at the same mean power HR can could vary by up to 20 b/min on separate occasions.

>>back to back = consecutive days (i.e., i could on a Saturday and sunday do a TT, or a sat TT and a sun RR or a sat RR and a sun RR, etc)

Ric

__________________
http://www.cyclecoach.com

sanmi

Ric,

Of course that at the same MEAN power it can vary 20 beats per minute!. But you were saying at the SAME power. THere is a huge difference in what you pointed out. You can pedal at a MEAN power of 200watts for 2h. for example in this mean power your power could be from 60 to 325. THe mean HR would be for example 125. But if in a different day you go for 2h at a mean power of 200 but with watts being between 156-225 (differing substantially from 60-325 from the previous test or TT). In this case ,for example, your Hr could be let´s say 149 .Your HR can change even more the 20 beats per minute!. Why?. THe effort is physiologically different between the 2 tests, although both elicit a MEAN power of 200W. but the mean HR differ largely due to different physiological stress.

sanmi

When I say that under normal physiological conditions is not possible a difference of 20 b/m within days, I am Talking about SAME LAboratory or even Field conditions. That is SAME WATTS!! and not SAME MEAN WATT, which can vary largely.