improving AT

zaskar

can someone clarify improving anaerobic threshold improvement?
im 37 my max hrt is 178, does it meen working as close to my
max for as long as possible or increasing my max hrt
thanks.

J-MAT

Zaskar:

Your maximum heart rate is pretty much a fixed number, and is basically genetically determined. There may be slight flucuations up or down, but esentially, it is a fixed number. Don't worry about this since there is nothing you can do about it.

Thresholds vary in definition and intensity, but basically they all refer to the point where anaerobic metabolism is called upon to help power the effort. Increases in anaerobic metabolism are associated with increased lactic acid levels.

All thresholds vary with fitness level. Well trained endurance athletes have very high thresholds. The higher your threshold, the harder you can push before lactate takes it's toll on you.

Increased lactic acid buildup is associated with heavy breathing, painful legs, and limitations on sustained performance. There is nothing good about lactate buildup.

Acidic states are bad for the body. People with terminal diseases are often in very acidic states, and many believe that chronically high acid levels can actually cause disease.

You have to wonder if 1973 TDF winner Luis Ocana, Lance Armstrong, and other pro riders over the years got cancer from way too much intensity (high acid).

Well trained riders can sustain around 92% of maximum heart rate for an hour or so. A poorly trained rider might have a threshold only around 75%-80% of maximum heart rate. If you want maximum sustained performance, your anaerobic threshold needs to be as high as possible.

You will increase your AT by spending a lot of time around your current threshold. Slightly below, at, or slightly above are all ok training intesities for raising your anaerobic threshold.

Cyrille Guimard, the French coach who has trained more TDF winners than anyone else in history says the biggest improvement in a rider occurs when they train about 10% below their actual anaerobic threshold.

Your AT will be around the point where you are breathing heavy and is the fastest pace you can hold for 30-60 minutes. Increased breathing is one of the ways the body tries to maintain a proper acid-base balance from the lactic acid generated. The heavier you breathe, the more acid you will "blow off."

You can get tested to find out at what intensity you start generating acid, but with a proper program, your numbers will shift every few weeks to few months, making testing an expensive and time-consuming option.

If you accurately know your true maximum heart rate, what percentage of your max can you hold for an hour right now???

On a flat course with calm/light winds, ride at a maximally high pace for the entire 30-60 minutes. Your heart rate should be fairly constant for the full 30-60 minutes.

Be sure you are well rested and "fresh" before doing the test. Whatever heart rate you can hold for the distance will correspond with your actual AT very nicely.

Whatever that heart rate is, spend a lot of time around that intensity. You can do several 10-20 minutes efforts at this intensity, or just go for it and do 2x30 minutes or one 60 minute effort. 2-3 times a week is good. Watch your recovery when training like this.

Spending a lot of time around your threshold will cause it to shift to a higher intensity/pulse rate. If it's at 151 bpm now, with consistent training, it might go up to 160 bpm in a few months or so.

Overall, it's better to go a little under your actual threshold rather than going over it.

Good luck!!!

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zaskar

very well explained JAYMAT thanks for your time.

If you accurately know your true maximum heart rate, what percentage of your max can you hold for an hour right now??? [/QUOTE]

i hold between 89&95% for 60 min, there are spots where i have to slow down and make turns and i also can get slowed for traffic,
so this is not an uninterupted time so i just go by my hrt monitor
for time in zone and try to extend time each week.









so is there no need to do intervals that cause lactic acid, once
you have a good base of fittness?

seriousturtle

j-mat, thx for the detailed reply. made a lot of sense

~the turtle

gicif

Good post, j-mat.
Thank you very much!

sanmi

J-mat that was an overall good explanations, but you made some mistakes talking about AT.
1. "anaerobic threshold" per se does not exist. There is no point at which the body turns from an aerobic stae to an anaerobic one. So "anaerobic threshold" is not a scientific term anymore. A more proper term would be "Lactate threshold" which is metabolic state at which muscle cells cannot oxidize (wash out) more lactate and therefore it starts building up.
2. Hypoxia (lack of O2) is not a necessary factor at all for lactate production. The key factor is muscle cell Glycolysis flux, which is the amount of glucose uptake in the miscle cell. The more glycolysis, the more lactate production.
3. It is NOT true the high lactate leves are linked to cancers. It is NOT proven at all. About certain desease that cause high lactate levels that can be bad for the body, it has to do with the desease per se and not with the lactate. The lactate is an indicator in those deseases of a metabolic, respiratory or cardiac disfunction, not the cause.

J-MAT

sanmi:

Are you the sole arbiter of correct physiological definitions??? How do you know that LT is correct??? How do you know AT is "incorrect???" What is your definition of LT??? What will it be called in ten years??? Thresholds seem to get new names periodically.

Can you tell me the date that AT was ruled "outdated" and who was the authority that made the decision??? What date and what authority declared LT the only term???

Many coaches and physiologists continue to disagree about terms such as AT/LT/VT/OBLA etc.

How do you get from what I said that the body suddenly turns from completely aerobic to completely anaerobic??? That seems to be your inference, I don't think anyone made that conclusion.

You should know that in the presence of oxygen, the byproducts of aerobic glycolysis are pyruvic acid, the precursor of lactic acid. However, as long as sufficient oxygen is present, pyruvic acid remains fairly stable and does NOT convert into lactic acid. As power increases, the aerobic system can only do so much. Eventually, the lack of oxygen WILL cause the formation of lactic acid.

Did I say lactate caused cancer??? The human body likes to be on the alkaline side, with normal blood ph around 7.3 (7.0 is neutral). Chronically low blood ph CAN weaken the immune system. A very heavy/unbalanced training load over many years CAN help the immune system to become chronically weakened. A weakened immune system can lead to cancer.

Many, many world championships and national tours have been won by riders who were trained under the term "anaerobic threshold" including Lance Armstrong.

These riders have accomplished a lot considering that according to you, "anaerobic threshold" per se does not exist." Think of how much faster they would have been if they would have trained under your "correct" label of LT.

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sanmi

Easy J-Mat..!

Just made some coments....
You are still wrong assuming that the lack of oxigen is the key for lactate formation. It is important of course!. But very dependable on the glycolitic flux. As you said pyuvic acid is reduced to lactate. This will be dependable not only on O2 availability but also on glycolitic flux. If your glycolityc flux is very high you will produce more lactate. This lactate will go via blood to the liver and through gluconeogenesis will become glucose which will go back to the muscle. THis is calles Cori´s cycle. However this cycle will get "jammed" as you produce more lactate. If you don´t have a good cell-to-cell oxidation system for lactate (as top cyclists have) your lactate will buid up in the cell. undepndable of O2 availability you can build up fairly large amounts of lactate simply by a high glycolitic flux into the cell and/or a poor tipe I cells and their respective oxidative enzimes profile.

I have just done a research about the famous 4mmol/L OBLA. This study clearly demonstrate that the 4mmol/L OBLA is not true.

Your concepts are from 10 year ago. I would recomend you to do research on this. Read G. Brooks. He is world´s maximal authority on lactate research.

cheers

2LAP

Rather, these are essential if you do any form of competition that involves exercise above the LT and cannot be avoided by people that sprint.

2LAP

I agree with you and AT is not really used anymore due to problems defining it; whereas terms like LT, OBLA, gaseous exchange threshold, etc. have definitions based upon physiological measurements making them very easy to monitor and reproduce.

I don't get what you mean that 'OBLA' is not true? Given that OBLA is now most commonly used as an arbetory point (i.e. an increase in your power at 4 mmol's represents an increase in 'fitness'). It obviously does not represent the 'onset of blood lactate accumulation' as this would occur at around 1 to 2 mmol's when Lactate concentrations break from baseline (ie. LT). The OBLA (i.e. 4 mmol) point does exist (as the range of blood lactate extends above this), however it does not represent an important physiological 'threshold' in itself.

J-MAT

Sanmi:

The formation of lactic acid due to insufficient oxygen is extremely well documented and has been know for many, many years. How can you deny this???

I intentionally used the term anaerobic threshold to see what kind of response it would generate. You still didn't answer the questions I asked. Who exactly deemed all other terms other than LT correct, and what date what it??? Who exactly decides what term to use??? What is their name and title???

It's funny that ten years from now someone will come along and change the term to describe accelerated anaerobic metabolism/lactate accumulation. LT will be "incorrect" and "outdated." When this happens, will your research and beliefs today be instantly wrong??? Doesn't make any sense does it???

The truth of the matter is there is NO authority on earth that is in charge of correct physiological definitions. Nobody on earth can say LT is correct or OBLA is incorrect, or whatever. Nobody. If there is, PLEASE TELL US WHO IT IS!!!

You make some assertions that are blanket statements, statements that are "absolutes." It's interesting that you say 4mM/OBLA doesn't exist. Anyone can generate 4 millimoles of lactate, but according to you it doesn't exist.

I guess you know more than all the other researchers in the world because you have done your study saying it doesn't exist.

Just think of how misguided and wrong everyone has been until you came along and shined the beacon of truth to enlighten the world. I don't know how we managed to survive before the results of your study came along.

LT is just as real or not as AT/OBLA/VT/etc. Most coaches and physiologists have defined AT as the 4mM level. This can be determined from blood samples, just like LT.

I've seen PhD's define LT as 4mM, some define LT as 2-2.5 mM, etc. Seems to me and just about everybody else that there is a REAL problem correctly defining LT. Precisely which one is correct??? How do you know???

The truth of the matter is no study can win you a race or tell you the best way to train, so what's the point??? Riders today aren't any more powerful than riders 10 years ago, or 30 years ago when you look at the best measure of human cycling performances, the hour record.

More riders at the bottom have had to raise their game in recent years, but the top riders are still at the same level. The power outputs of the hour record holders have been very constant over 30 years.

As far as my concepts being 10 years old, you wouldn't be able to produce a rider with any more power today than using "outdated" methods like AT or OBLA or whatever.

You are so caught up in trying to tell me I'm wrong, how about producing something yourself to back up your claims if your methods are truly better???

Whatever you believe today won't make a rider any more powerful than coaches did decades ago. Results are the only thing that matters. You can waste your time trying to redefine what a wheel is, but at the end of the day, a wheel is still a wheel and will always be a wheel.

What are you doing to make riders faster???

If you know so much, how about getting someone to hold 600 watts for an hour??? Why not back up your talk and train a rider to break the pro hour record if your methods are truly superior???

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2LAP

The scientific community deem the terms correct or wrong and the terms used change as we learn and get better equiped to describe physiological processes. The definition for lactate threshold (as Ric often points out) is a 1 mmol increase above baseline; this represents the point where lactate starts accumulating given that it has started to raise above baseline whereas 4 mmol occurs some time and power after this. OBLA still has applications and terms need to be used in the correct context.

Terms do become incorrect and outdated as they move out of favour with the scientific community or alternative and more appropriate measures are found.

Please see my post with similar sentiments. I also don't get what he means when he says OBLA is not true!

LT only has one definition; 4 mmol, 2 to 2.5 mmol, etc. are by definition not LT. Differences in their use may also result from different protocols being used. LT (1 mmol increase) is commonly used in the literature at the moment, so would be the appropriate term to use.

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sanmi

J-MAt,

I won´t argue anymore with you. Firs because I don´t like your unrespectful tone. 2nd, because you are proving that your knownledge on Lactate metabolism is very poor or at least obsolete. You don´t even know who George Brooks is. He is the most important authority today on Lactate metabolism. He proposed the ideas that I am telling you and among other things he proposed that AT does nor really exist and that alone with O2, Glycolituc flux is the key for lactate formation and that you can produce fairly good amount of lactate in the presence of O2, so it is not my theory. It is his. BUt if you don´t know who he is or even haven´t read his leading research on lactate you cannot say much. Like you do with me at that time (10 years ago) most physiologist strongly disagreed with his findings. Now all well-documented physiologist and lactate researchers admitt that he is right and consider him as world´s #1 authority on Lactate. There are still many Phd´s that are completly lost, like you, when it comes to lactate. Just because someone is a PhD does not mean he/she knows everything about Physiology. I am a PhD in medical physiology and my knownledge of renal tubes physiology is pretty general but not excellent like someone who´s research is solely focused in renal tubes physiology. That person will be in the cutting edge in renal tubes physiology, I am not.

But I see anyways that you don´t even know who G. Brooks is and his research work, so I am sorry but I cannot argue with you since you are not prepared for that. Period.

Your comments are quiet agressive as you take them as a direct attack against your person (maybe unsecurity?). I would recomend you to take it easier. I only did a coment on something you posted here. I was not unrespectful, did not attack you neither took it so personal. After all in this forum we are just sharing ideas and we are not saving the world....


cheers

sanmi

2lap,

LT is being defined in differnet ways as you said. Nobady yet has proven wher it is. I agree. In my opinion it is important to set an individual LT. MLSS could be. in my opinion the way to go for an LT.

What I was meaning by the 4 mmol OBLA, still widely wrongly used as the marker point for " AT" is that it is not a true value since the same blood lactate concentration [La] does not elicit a same lactate muscle production. This has been already proven by G. Brooks, who as you know, is the most important researcher on lactate today.

Here are some studies I have selected from Brooks.

-Brooks GA. Related Articles, Links
Lactate shuttles in nature.
Biochem Soc Trans. 2002 Apr;30(2):258-64. Review.
- Brooks GA. Related Articles, Links
Lactate shuttle -- between but not within cells?
J Physiol. 2002 Jun 1;541(Pt 2):333-4.

-Brooks GA. Related Articles, Links
Lactate doesn't necessarily cause fatigue: why are we surprised?
J Physiol. 2001 Oct 1;536(Pt 1):1Review.

- Brooks GA. Related Articles, Links
Intra- and extra-cellular lactate shuttles.
Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2000 Apr;32(4):790-9. Review.

- Brooks GA. Related Articles, Links
Importance of the 'crossover' concept in exercise metabolism.
Clin Exp Pharmacol Physiol. 1997 Nov;24(11):889-95.
(Key study by him)
- Brooks GA, Mercier J. Related Articles, Links
Balance of carbohydrate and lipid utilization during exercise: the "crossover" concept.
J Appl Physiol. 1994 Jun;76(6):2253-61. Review.
(this was his 1st key study).



Cheers