College is just too expensive nowadays!

gemship

hey how about the decline of manufacturing here in America. I'm a cnc machinist, its a trade. Won't make a fortune but depending on what it is you produce,shape from raw stock. I say raw stock as a all inclusive term to metals, plastics, wood. Anyway the new modern machine shop depends highly on technology furthering advances in expensive tooling yet combines the old school machining principles. Kids don't care for it. What it takes to make money is repetitive to some extent. despite all that theres so many aspects of the trade to get educated. Certainly the business end but one has to have at least basic math skills. Blueprint reading/interpretation, some mechanical aptitude,definitely computer savy as there is a whole world of programming software. Custom tool grinding is a art in itself. There really is a lot to this trade but it isn't the glitz and glam for todays kids

It's too bad to see that even the most skilled of manufacturing here in the US may be a dying breed. Oh I think there will always be a machine shop but just not the big industry it is today in the US.

Crankyfeet

There seems to be some interesting trends and paradoxes going on. I think Pendejo's anecdotal experience teaching at a university is interesting and encapsulates a major problem with the current education system IMO. That is... teachers are being evaluated on the grades of their students. So they can better their job performance by teaching better... or making it easier to get good grades. Unfortunately it is probably easier to do the latter... especially when the students aren't willing to make a commitment to learn.

Another trend nowadays is that college education is much more common and sort after than say 40 years ago. Whereas before in a roomful of people... maybe one in five (guessing) had a college degree.... nowadays it's more likely to be the majority of people. Women fifty years ago were expected to leave school after year 10 and become secretaries. I don't think the genetic aptitude of people has changed in 40 years... so with more people needing to get through a degree course... the bar almost can't help being lowered... and the average quality of graduate diluted... to account for all the people now wanting a degree accreditation that once before may have been happy going to work straight out of high school.

When I was at school... one of my friends did medicine BECAUSE he got the highest grade possible on his tertiary entrance score (like the SAT in the US). He hadn't even taken biology at high school. I remember him telling me that his dad (who was a research scientist) had said that in the fifties... the smart math guys became scientists. Then in the late sixties and seventies it was engineering. When I left school... a lot were going into medicine (the ones with the best grades at least). Now... there might be a lot who are becoming derivatives and risk experts in investment banks... because that's where the dollars are.

Manufacturing jobs aren't the only occupation that is being outsourced these days. Technology jobs suffer competition from countries like India especially... Technology careers are attractive to a smart introvert, who can become technically proficient by learning independently from a "book"... and producing a skill/knowledge that is tangible. And it has a structured future. Business management is more vague... and possibly one is hindered by cultural differences and not being in the "network". Whilst everyone seems to lament the loss of emphasis of technology/science/engineering careers in the west... western business managers are considered streets above the quality, on average, of managers in developing, and even second world countries. The cultures in a lot of these countries don't encourage independent thought. An expat uni lecturer I met in Asia couldn't believe how immature the Asian college students were in their unwillingness to have a dialogue with the lecturer. No one ever asked a question.

Whilst the quality of math and science in America seems to be declining... American students are doing much more homework than 30 years ago (I read this somewhere). Algebra is a requirement for everyone to pass high school. I think this is ridiculous as algebra is not a necessity for everyone to get by in life IMHO.

School students today are under more stress it seems to perform with grades and get into the best college possible.

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alienator

Good points. The drive to get a degree that gets them out of school and into a job quickly is obvious on college campuses here. Equally obvious is that there's a not insignificant number of students who just can't be bothered with being challenged in school. Likewise, it seems only a minority of students is actually studying what they like or what interests them, while a majority are just cruising through a "degree process."

I wasn't implying that engineering, science, and math are in any way the most worthy or important fields but rather that the lack of people graduating with degrees in those fields is sympotmatic of something wrong with education in general...and that's a whole different thread.

Like you, I consider education to be absolutely essential. As I indicated, education certainly isn't considered essential or worthy of funding here, in the US. Essential doesn't mean "necessary for getting a job." Instead education is essential because it's the knowledge and skills that come from education that drive innovation, progress, and solutions to any number of issues. For example, the lack of education in sociology and history is writ large across our president's vacuous head, as he blunders his way around the world, completely ignorant of different cultures and values.

alienator

I'm with Limerickman on the idea of a college degree not being an absolute necessity. What is a necessity is a worthwhile education in whatever it is you do.

As for the distribution of duds in the graduates, you might be right. The Law of Large Numbers would say that distribution does and has always followed a Normal distribution. With the increased number of folks "at college" the number of duds coming out compared to the past has to be larger.

The sense of entitlement, though, in recent grads seems to be pretty damned high.

TheDarkLord

The latest gaffe: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/...n_n_108985.html

Crankyfeet

He just tapped into the most hated world stereotype of every middle class Philippino. That Philippinos are all domestic helpers.

Well done cowboy.

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Crankyfeet

The distribution doesn't have to have the same parameters. College attendees, as a non-random sample, have higher mean IQ's and SAT scores than the general population. If only the top 20% of students went to college 40 years ago... the mean aptitude of that distribution would probably be higher than that of college attendees today where, say, the top 60% are going to college (these percentages are assumptions to illustrate a point).

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9.8mps2

Yeah man, what's next ? Assuming all pro cyclists dope ?

Crankyfeet

No... more like... assumimg all doping apologists are Armstrong worshippers.

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limerickman

Very interesting view.

Speaking of the movement of manufacturing jobs to other economies, you did highlight another issue.
The loss of manufacturing skills.
For example, un yesterdays newspaper, the economics editor went to Paris fashion week to look at haute couture.
Haute couture - the industry of making one off dresses/clothes for people - has suffered zero impact from the credit crunch.
The economics editor of this paper wanted to see why/how this could be, given that haute couture goods costs thousands to make.
The companies representing the haute couture industry said that their industry is based on two things.
Exclustivity is one factor.
But the other factor is the craftsmanship in making the product.
People will pay huge money for a product that is well made.
The companies said that the retention of these skills were paramount.

The same thinking needs to be applied more widely in society.
If societies lose the ability and knowhow to produce then there is a serious problem.
More importantly, if societies lose the ability to understand/think - and this is where education plays a crucial role - then that is an even more serious issue.
(this last issue is a bit of a hobbyhorse for me - I contend that "the powers that be" want to remove our ability to think critically).

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.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

saintsfan342000

Man you must be bipolar.

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Simplicity and reserve will be practiced and petty effects and frippery avoided.

gemship

Thankyou, I'm glad someone can appreciate that view, I was actually starting to wonder if I may of been a little off topic. Of course my view reflects my personal experience. At 34 years old I am still young but now in charge of my destiny more than ever. Whilst most of my school mates went on to college with their folks support I didn't. I had my folks support just not of the monetery means. I didn't want student loans and when I was 19 freshly graduated high school given my experience at the time I loathed school and chose to work. I started out landscaping and selling antiques. Did a stint in plastics manufacturing, injection mold machine operating and about 9 years ago I sort of fell into the machine shop field. I suppose with my interest in motorcycles and bicycles it was inevitable. Although school is expensive I believe in can be worth it but it is a serious commitment. I'm not a rich man but in some sense of the word I am moderately wealthy. With no debt and owning all I have out right I have it good. I may be building a small 600 sq. ft. house in the woods too with some land in the family and it will not be mortgaged most likely as I have the money saved. Not too shabby.

By the way on that last issue of the powers that be taking away our critical thinking I must say I am a avid believer in conspiricy theories. Living in a nation that has become more of a service country rather than a once regarded producer I too agree. I believe highly skilled in all fields is important and comes from experience thru preserverance which means a individual must put in their time and pay their dues. With that proper school education can be described as merely a starting step.

Powerful Pete

Well, simply not having any debt and being able to contemplate building a home these days means that you are doing better than 'not too shabby'. Congratulations.

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Campagnolo Per Sempre!
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gemship

Thank you I suppose I just played my cards right and with a little bit of luck. This home will be the education I never invested in if that makes sense. Although I do envy those that went on to become doctors ,engineers. There may yet be time for that too as my life is far from over.