Last TDF winner to flat?

carlfogel@comcast.net

On Tue, 24 Jun 2008 21:19:01 -0700, "Kerry Montgomery"
<kamontgo@teleport.com> wrote:

>
><carlfogel@comcast.net> wrote in message
>news:rlf36455opqu8rb8fb1ugfr67snc3l5hct@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 24 Jun 2008 20:40:24 -0700 (PDT), 2bowlers@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>On Jun 24, 7:44 pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
>>>
>>>> >> But a link (snip)
>>>
>>>http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...754C0A96F958260
>>>
>>>Apologies for using google as a newsread. I know that's considered
>>>Fredly here in nerd land...
>>>
>>>Mark
>>
>> Dear Mark,
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Interestingly, the NYT took a less dramatic view of Armstrong's 1999
>> flat tire than the earlier example:
>>
>> "Armstrong, on the other hand, had good luck throughout. He had his
>> first flat tire of the [1999] Tour today during a mainly ceremonial
>> final stage, when it did no harm, as it could have done during a stage
>> in the mountains."
>>
>> http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...754C0A96F958260
>>
>> In contrast, the USA Today article that Ben found made it sound as if
>> Armstrong was lucky to have a loyal team (unlike those treacherous
>> domestiques that we all deplore) to get him back into the race:
>>
>> "And not only was Armstrong clad in the yellow shirt of the race's
>> leader - his wheel was yellow, too."
>>
>> "Later, Armstrong was to lose that newly decorated wheel to a
>> puncture, but his loyal teammates from the U.S. Postal Service helped
>> him back to the pack."
>> http://www.usatoday.com/sports/cycl...tour/wrapup.htm
>>
>> ***
>>
>> So two posters found accounts of Armstrong flatting on the final stage
>> of 1999.
>>
>> If that turns out to be Armstrong's only flat in the TDF, Mike can be
>> forgiven for thinking that Armstrong led a charmed life.
>>
>> Me, I'm trying to imagine only a single flat in ~2300 miles.
>>
>snippage
>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Carl Fogel
>
>Carl,
>That'd be 1 flat in ~(2300 * 7) = 16,100 miles!
>Kerry

Dear Kerry,

Yikes!

I was trying not to think about that possibility and sticking to just
the 1999 TDF.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Mike Jacoubowsky

> I don't know about flats, but he did crash and break his bike (the
> chainstay) on the final climb -- anybody remember that one?

Luz Ardiden, 2003, perhaps the most-exciting TdF finish in a number of years
as Lance truly looked vulnerable. An incredible race to watch (I was there).
It would have to be my favorite of the 7 years I visited the TdF.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA



"Patrick Lamb" <pdl678NOSPAM@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:rq936491n0fbal2qndja85rl97ah7vs2ve@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 22:57:42 -0600, carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>>Did Armstrong have flat tires in the Tour de France?
>>
>>If not, how far back do we have to go to find a TDF winner who had a
>>flat tire?
>>
>>I'm sure that some RBT posters who know the answers, but I drew a
>>complete blank.
>
> I don't know about flats, but he did crash and break his bike (the
> chainstay) on the final climb -- anybody remember that one?
>
> Pat
>
> Email address works as is.

Mike Jacoubowsky

> Me, I'm trying to imagine only a single flat in ~2300 miles.

I'm thankful I *don't* have a flat every 2300 miles! I don't even remember
my last flat on the road. I'd have to check my old almost-daily-diary
entries to find out, but, and I really shouldn't be saying this, it might be
6k miles at this point. On average, I probably get one flat every 3k miles
or so (two per year).

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA


<carlfogel@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:rlf36455opqu8rb8fb1ugfr67snc3l5hct@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 24 Jun 2008 20:40:24 -0700 (PDT), 2bowlers@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>On Jun 24, 7:44 pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
>>
>>> >> But a link (snip)
>>
>>http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...754C0A96F958260
>>
>>Apologies for using google as a newsread. I know that's considered
>>Fredly here in nerd land...
>>
>>Mark
>
> Dear Mark,
>
> Thanks!
>
> Interestingly, the NYT took a less dramatic view of Armstrong's 1999
> flat tire than the earlier example:
>
> "Armstrong, on the other hand, had good luck throughout. He had his
> first flat tire of the [1999] Tour today during a mainly ceremonial
> final stage, when it did no harm, as it could have done during a stage
> in the mountains."
>
> http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...754C0A96F958260
>
> In contrast, the USA Today article that Ben found made it sound as if
> Armstrong was lucky to have a loyal team (unlike those treacherous
> domestiques that we all deplore) to get him back into the race:
>
> "And not only was Armstrong clad in the yellow shirt of the race's
> leader - his wheel was yellow, too."
>
> "Later, Armstrong was to lose that newly decorated wheel to a
> puncture, but his loyal teammates from the U.S. Postal Service helped
> him back to the pack."
> http://www.usatoday.com/sports/cycl...tour/wrapup.htm
>
> ***
>
> So two posters found accounts of Armstrong flatting on the final stage
> of 1999.
>
> If that turns out to be Armstrong's only flat in the TDF, Mike can be
> forgiven for thinking that Armstrong led a charmed life.
>
> Me, I'm trying to imagine only a single flat in ~2300 miles.
>
> ***
>
> As for using Google Groups, no apologies are needed.
>
> Google Groups is free, it works fine for lots of people, its archives
> are about the only game in town for RBT, and it entertains grouchy
> posters with nothing else to quibble about.
>
> I often use Google Groups when I belatedly reply to a post deleted
> from my Agent newsreader.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel

carlfogel@comcast.net

On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 22:57:42 -0600, carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:

>Did Armstrong have flat tires in the Tour de France?
>
>If not, how far back do we have to go to find a TDF winner who had a
>flat tire?
>
>I'm sure that some RBT posters who know the answers, but I drew a
>complete blank.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Carl Fogel

Here's a TDF winner with a flat that doesn't count:

"Four-time champion Lance Armstrong was thrown from his bike but not
seriously hurt in a crash involving about 35 riders sprinting for the
finish line in the first full stage of the Tour de France on Sunday
[2003]. . . ."

"Armstrong completed the race on the bike of U.S. Postal teammate Jose
Luis Rubiera. Armstrong had a flat, and the wheel wouldn't turn, so
Rubiera got off his bike and handed it to Armstrong."
http://espn.go.com/oly/tdf2003/s/2003/0706/1577244.html

Yes, it was technically an impact puncture, but the wheel that
wouldn't turn disqualifies it for purists, just as a spoke broken in a
crash wouldn't really count if the subject was spoke failures.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

carlfogel@comcast.net

On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 22:57:42 -0600, carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:

>Did Armstrong have flat tires in the Tour de France?
>
>If not, how far back do we have to go to find a TDF winner who had a
>flat tire?
>
>I'm sure that some RBT posters who know the answers, but I drew a
>complete blank.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Carl Fogel

Here's a genuine flat for a TDF winner:

"Lance Armstrong (U.S. Postal Service) has won Stage 13 of the Tour de
France [July 17, 2004]. The five-time defending champion outsprinted
Ivan Basso (CSC) to win the mountainous, 205.5-km ride from Lannemezan
to Plateau de Beille in 6:04:38. . . ."

"Armstrong punctured on the descent of the Port de Lers. U.S. Postal
Service slowed the pursuit to allow the defending champion to get back
on and then resumed the torture."
http://www.roadcycling.com/cgi-bin/.../view.cgi/4/730

And here's a picture:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/la-07...618253.photo#23

The mechanic probably wishes that the photographer hadn't caught him
in mid-skip, looking silly.

So Armstrong had at least two flats, one in 1999 and again in 2004.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

carlfogel@comcast.net

On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 22:57:42 -0600, carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:

>Did Armstrong have flat tires in the Tour de France?
>
>If not, how far back do we have to go to find a TDF winner who had a
>flat tire?
>
>I'm sure that some RBT posters who know the answers, but I drew a
>complete blank.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Carl Fogel

After the 2002 TDF, an interviewer asked Armstrong:

"You've had a lot of good luck. In four years just this one crash, and
one flat tire. How big a part does luck play in it?"
http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=1375

So only one flat in his first four Tour wins (through 2002), during
the final stage in 1999, with at least one more in 2004 stage 13.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

2bowlers@gmail.com

On Jun 24, 11:58*pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:

> As for using Google Groups, no apologies are needed.

I miss PINE but I am just too lazy to switch to something different
for the 2 or three newsgroups that I follow nowadays.

Armstrong did appear to have amazing luck but one wonders how much is
luck and how much was preparation and having everything geared to
working on his behalf.

Or perhaps there is something to aging tubbies in a root cellar for a
decade.... Naahhhh.

Mark

Morten Reippuert Knudsen

On 2008-06-24 08:12:28 +0200, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
<MikeJ@ChainReaction.com> said:

> Carl: Lance was one of the most incredibly-lucky cyclists ever. He didn't
> get flats, period.

Bullshit. Of course i did get flats, he just didn't flat on important
moments and hardly ever complained about his flats.

I recall at least two flats.

2007 last stage, before entering Champ Elyse.
2004 Bourg D'Orsaint a few km before the ascent to Alpe D'Huez.


--
mvh. Morten Reippuert Knudsen

"Besides, if you can't get a decent kernal panic
or two in a month, what's the point of living?"

Mike Jacoubowsky

| > Carl: Lance was one of the most incredibly-lucky cyclists ever. He
didn't
| > get flats, period.
|
| Bullshit. Of course i did get flats, he just didn't flat on important
| moments and hardly ever complained about his flats.
|
| I recall at least two flats.
|
| 2007 last stage, before entering Champ Elyse.
| 2004 Bourg D'Orsaint a few km before the ascent to Alpe D'Huez.

The 2004 flat... was it during the warm-up, or was it the team car that had
the flat? Details of that stage can be found here-
http://velonews.com/article/6631

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

carlfogel@comcast.net

On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 21:43:07 -0700, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
<mikej1@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>| > Carl: Lance was one of the most incredibly-lucky cyclists ever. He
>didn't
>| > get flats, period.
>|
>| Bullshit. Of course i did get flats, he just didn't flat on important
>| moments and hardly ever complained about his flats.
>|
>| I recall at least two flats.
>|
>| 2007 last stage, before entering Champ Elyse.
>| 2004 Bourg D'Orsaint a few km before the ascent to Alpe D'Huez.
>
>The 2004 flat... was it during the warm-up, or was it the team car that had
>the flat? Details of that stage can be found here-
>http://velonews.com/article/6631
>
>--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
>www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Dear Mike,

Details of the 2004 flat, previously posted:

"Lance Armstrong (U.S. Postal Service) has won Stage 13 of the Tour de
France [July 17, 2004]. The five-time defending champion outsprinted
Ivan Basso (CSC) to win the mountainous, 205.5-km ride from Lannemezan
to Plateau de Beille in 6:04:38. . . ."

"Armstrong punctured on the descent of the Port de Lers. U.S. Postal
Service slowed the pursuit to allow the defending champion to get back
on and then resumed the torture."
http://www.roadcycling.com/cgi-bin/.../view.cgi/4/730

A photo:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/la-07...618253.photo#23

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

carlfogel@comcast.net

On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 10:24:05 +0200, Morten Reippuert Knudsen
<spam@reippuert.dk> wrote:

>On 2008-06-24 08:12:28 +0200, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
><MikeJ@ChainReaction.com> said:
>
>> Carl: Lance was one of the most incredibly-lucky cyclists ever. He didn't
>> get flats, period.
>
>Bullshit. Of course i did get flats, he just didn't flat on important
>moments and hardly ever complained about his flats.
>
>I recall at least two flats.
>
>2007 last stage, before entering Champ Elyse.
>2004 Bourg D'Orsaint a few km before the ascent to Alpe D'Huez.

Dear Morten,

Er, Lance Armstrong had a flat tire in the last stage of the _2007_
Tour de France?

Possibly you were thinking of the flat already mentioned in the final
stage of the 1999 TDF?

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

RS

In article <4865f525$0$90274$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>,
spam@reippuert.dk says...
>
>
>On 2008-06-24 08:12:28 +0200, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
><MikeJ@ChainReaction.com> said:
>
>> Carl: Lance was one of the most incredibly-lucky cyclists ever. He didn't
>> get flats, period.
>
>Bullshit. Of course i did get flats, he just didn't flat on important
>moments and hardly ever complained about his flats.
>
>I recall at least two flats.
>
>2007 last stage, before entering Champ Elyse.
>2004 Bourg D'Orsaint a few km before the ascent to Alpe D'Huez.
>
>
>--
>mvh. Morten Reippuert Knudsen
>
>"Besides, if you can't get a decent kernal panic
> or two in a month, what's the point of living?"
>
With pro class mechanics following in a team car that can change a rear
wheel in 15 seconds or so, what difference does a flat make? I had heard he
used some type of tubulars from a guy in France that aged them for several
years, supposedly made them more pliant and puncture resistant.

carlfogel@comcast.net

On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 22:17:00 -0700, RS <r_schiller@comcast.net> wrote:

>In article <4865f525$0$90274$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>,
>spam@reippuert.dk says...
>>
>>
>>On 2008-06-24 08:12:28 +0200, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
>><MikeJ@ChainReaction.com> said:
>>
>>> Carl: Lance was one of the most incredibly-lucky cyclists ever. He didn't
>>> get flats, period.
>>
>>Bullshit. Of course i did get flats, he just didn't flat on important
>>moments and hardly ever complained about his flats.
>>
>>I recall at least two flats.
>>
>>2007 last stage, before entering Champ Elyse.
>>2004 Bourg D'Orsaint a few km before the ascent to Alpe D'Huez.
>>
>>
>>--
>>mvh. Morten Reippuert Knudsen
>>
>>"Besides, if you can't get a decent kernal panic
>> or two in a month, what's the point of living?"
>>
>With pro class mechanics following in a team car that can change a rear
>wheel in 15 seconds or so, what difference does a flat make? I had heard he
>used some type of tubulars from a guy in France that aged them for several
>years, supposedly made them more pliant and puncture resistant.

Dear RS,

What difference does a flat make?

Well, in the 2004 Tour de France . . .

"Stage 4: The Team Time Trial"

"The team time trial is one of the hardest events in cycling, and one
of Lance’s favorites. The entire nine-man team rides together, sharing
the work of completing 64.5 kilometers as fast as they can. It has to
be a collective effort because the team’s time is taken when the fifth
rider crosses the finish line."

"The conditions were horrendous, with pelting rain and driving wind.
There were numerous crashes and flat tires; Tyler Hamilton’s team left
four men behind with flat tires and rode the final third of the race
with just five men. Armstrong and company put in a masterful
performance to win the stage by over a minute, but a new rule wiped
away most of their winning margin."
http://www.roadcycling.com/cgi-bin/.../view.cgi/4/705

In other words, the flats would have mattered, but a TDF rule wiped
out most of Armstrong's gain.

Hamilton's team chose narrower tires than Armstrong's team, hoping for
a slight speed increase. Instead, they had four flats in 40 miles.
(Some accounts say only three.)

***

As for the "aged" tubulars, normal rubber only hardens with age, so
it's strange to claim that a rubber tire slowly becomes simultaneously
softer and yet harder to puncture.

There is the special case of natural latex inner tubes, which are
thought to resist impact punctures better than butyl tubes because the
softer latex squishes instead of splitting under impact.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

carlfogel@comcast.net

On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 22:17:00 -0700, RS <r_schiller@comcast.net> wrote:

>In article <4865f525$0$90274$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>,
>spam@reippuert.dk says...
>>
>>
>>On 2008-06-24 08:12:28 +0200, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
>><MikeJ@ChainReaction.com> said:
>>
>>> Carl: Lance was one of the most incredibly-lucky cyclists ever. He didn't
>>> get flats, period.
>>
>>Bullshit. Of course i did get flats, he just didn't flat on important
>>moments and hardly ever complained about his flats.
>>
>>I recall at least two flats.
>>
>>2007 last stage, before entering Champ Elyse.
>>2004 Bourg D'Orsaint a few km before the ascent to Alpe D'Huez.
>>
>>
>>--
>>mvh. Morten Reippuert Knudsen
>>
>>"Besides, if you can't get a decent kernal panic
>> or two in a month, what's the point of living?"
>>
>With pro class mechanics following in a team car that can change a rear
>wheel in 15 seconds or so, what difference does a flat make? I had heard he
>used some type of tubulars from a guy in France that aged them for several
>years, supposedly made them more pliant and puncture resistant.

Dear RS,

What difference does a flat make?

Well, in the 2004 Tour de France . . .

"Stage 4: The Team Time Trial"

"The team time trial is one of the hardest events in cycling, and one
of Lance’s favorites. The entire nine-man team rides together, sharing
the work of completing 64.5 kilometers as fast as they can. It has to
be a collective effort because the team’s time is taken when the fifth
rider crosses the finish line."

"The conditions were horrendous, with pelting rain and driving wind.
There were numerous crashes and flat tires; Tyler Hamilton’s team left
four men behind with flat tires and rode the final third of the race
with just five men. Armstrong and company put in a masterful
performance to win the stage by over a minute, but a new rule wiped
away most of their winning margin."
http://www.roadcycling.com/cgi-bin/.../view.cgi/4/705

In other words, the flats would have mattered, but a TDF rule wiped
out most of Armstrong's gain.

Hamilton's team chose narrower tires than Armstrong's team, hoping for
a slight speed increase. Instead, they had four flats in 40 miles.
(Some accounts say only three.)

***

As for the "aged" tubulars, normal rubber only hardens with age, so
it's strange to claim that a rubber tire slowly becomes simultaneously
softer and yet harder to puncture.

There is the special case of natural latex inner tubes, which are
thought to resist impact punctures better than butyl tubes because the
softer latex squishes instead of splitting under impact.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel