Another scary crash video

ilanpsi@gmail.com

On Jun 20, 12:23*am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 07:26:21 -0700 (PDT), raam...@gmail.com wrote:
> >On Jun 19, 8:23*am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
> >wrote:
> >> On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 05:09:31 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour
>
> >> <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote:
> >> >Partly. *There seemed to be a dark patch in the road - maybe oil? -
> >> >and that can happen to anybody. *It's tough when natural instinct
> >> >(putting a foot down) wins out over keeping your ass from flying off
> >> >an embankment. *He should have laid it down.
>
> >> Yeah. Perhaps rider error, perhaps oil. If I heard later his tire
> >> flatted just then I wouldn't be surprised either. *But NOT severe
> >> frame flex for those bikes specifically.
>
> >not severe flex, but just enough under load- or something else about
> >the frame- last year at the tdf there were a couple of occaisions
> >where the csc rider was unable to negoiate the curve on a descent,
> >whereas other riders did- *anyone re-watching the tdf2007 dvds might
> >just take a note of the number of times a csc rider had trouble on a
> >curve
>
> No way. *No way is such a phenomenon especially prevalent on one type
> of high end bike and not others.

The Cervelo R3 is supposed to be the stiffest frame in the pro tour.
As for the ability of the frame to stand stress, it is the one used by
Cancellara and O'Grady in their Paris-Roubaix wins (O'Grady used a
slightly modified geometry). Schleck was riding an R3-SL which is
essentially the same frame.

-ilan

bjw@mambo.ucolick.org

On Jun 19, 7:26*am, raam...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jun 19, 8:23*am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Yeah. Perhaps rider error, perhaps oil. If I heard later his tire
> > flatted just then I wouldn't be surprised either. *But NOT severe
> > frame flex for those bikes specifically.
>
> not severe flex, but just enough under load- or something else about
> the frame- last year at the tdf there were a couple of occaisions
> where the csc rider was unable to negoiate the curve on a descent,
> whereas other riders did- *anyone re-watching the tdf2007 dvds might
> just take a note of the number of times a csc rider had trouble on a
> curve

Side load on a head tube, or just about any frame
part, during a descent is essentially zero. Bicycles
lean into corners rather than scrubbing tires like cars.
I could see issues from either an ultra flexy fork or
flex in a really long steerer and headtube (which can
contribute to shimmy), but hardly any of these guys
ride such a frame.

If the CSC riders are falling down on curves, maybe
Bjarne needs to skip the commando training camp
before the season start next year, and take them
skiing or MTB'ing or down some hill steeper and
twistier than what they have in Denmark.

Ben

dave a

bjw@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
> On Jun 19, 7:26 am, raam...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Jun 19, 8:23 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Yeah. Perhaps rider error, perhaps oil. If I heard later his tire
>>> flatted just then I wouldn't be surprised either. But NOT severe
>>> frame flex for those bikes specifically.
>> not severe flex, but just enough under load- or something else about
>> the frame- last year at the tdf there were a couple of occaisions
>> where the csc rider was unable to negoiate the curve on a descent,
>> whereas other riders did- anyone re-watching the tdf2007 dvds might
>> just take a note of the number of times a csc rider had trouble on a
>> curve
>
> Side load on a head tube, or just about any frame
> part, during a descent is essentially zero. Bicycles
> lean into corners rather than scrubbing tires like cars.
> I could see issues from either an ultra flexy fork or
> flex in a really long steerer and headtube (which can
> contribute to shimmy), but hardly any of these guys
> ride such a frame.
>
> If the CSC riders are falling down on curves, maybe
> Bjarne needs to skip the commando training camp
> before the season start next year, and take them
> skiing or MTB'ing or down some hill steeper and
> twistier than what they have in Denmark.
>
> Ben

I understand the lateral stiffness, but, I am still confused about the
vertical compliance.

/dave a

Michael Press

In article
<d0f865db-c487-4390-9743-25051925997b@d19g2000prm.googlegroups.com>,
"bjw@mambo.ucolick.org" <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote:

> On Jun 19, 7:26*am, raam...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Jun 19, 8:23*am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Yeah. Perhaps rider error, perhaps oil. If I heard later his tire
> > > flatted just then I wouldn't be surprised either. *But NOT severe
> > > frame flex for those bikes specifically.
> >
> > not severe flex, but just enough under load- or something else about
> > the frame- last year at the tdf there were a couple of occaisions
> > where the csc rider was unable to negoiate the curve on a descent,
> > whereas other riders did- *anyone re-watching the tdf2007 dvds might
> > just take a note of the number of times a csc rider had trouble on a
> > curve
>
> Side load on a head tube, or just about any frame
> part, during a descent is essentially zero. Bicycles
> lean into corners rather than scrubbing tires like cars.
> I could see issues from either an ultra flexy fork or
> flex in a really long steerer and headtube (which can
> contribute to shimmy), but hardly any of these guys
> ride such a frame.

I do not think it is that simple.
What you describe is true for a constant curvature turn.
Descents require very hard changes in the
bicycle's aspect. This puts forces every
which way on the front of the bicycle.

--
Michael Press

raamman@gmail.com

On Jun 19, 6:23*pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 07:26:21 -0700 (PDT), raam...@gmail.com wrote:
> >On Jun 19, 8:23*am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
> >wrote:
> >> On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 05:09:31 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour
>
> >> <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote:
> >> >Partly. *There seemed to be a dark patch in the road - maybe oil? -
> >> >and that can happen to anybody. *It's tough when natural instinct
> >> >(putting a foot down) wins out over keeping your ass from flying off
> >> >an embankment. *He should have laid it down.
>
> >> Yeah. Perhaps rider error, perhaps oil. If I heard later his tire
> >> flatted just then I wouldn't be surprised either. *But NOT severe
> >> frame flex for those bikes specifically.
>
> >not severe flex, but just enough under load- or something else about
> >the frame- last year at the tdf there were a couple of occaisions
> >where the csc rider was unable to negoiate the curve on a descent,
> >whereas other riders did- *anyone re-watching the tdf2007 dvds might
> >just take a note of the number of times a csc rider had trouble on a
> >curve
>
> No way. *No way is such a phenomenon especially prevalent on one type
> of high end bike and not others.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

watch the dvds; as I own a cervelo I am more aware of the brand and
was noticing those riders having problems on corners. it doesn't have
to flex at the head tube- just there's a problem, could be frame
alignment, whatever- there appears to be a tendancy to fail to
negotiate a curve on a fast descent, not just "little bobby j" riding.
keep an eye out this upcoming tdf for reoccurances

John Forrest Tomlinson

On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 23:11:11 -0700 (PDT), raamman@gmail.com wrote:

>watch the dvds; as I own a cervelo I am more aware of the brand and
>was noticing those riders having problems on corners. it doesn't have
>to flex at the head tube- just there's a problem, could be frame
>alignment, whatever- there appears to be a tendancy to fail to
>negotiate a curve on a fast descent, not just "little bobby j" riding.
>keep an eye out this upcoming tdf for reoccurances


No way is there a serious problem with that brand at that level. No
way.

RicodJour

On Jun 20, 2:11 am, raam...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> watch the dvds; as I own a cervelo I am more aware of the brand and
> was noticing those riders having problems on corners. it doesn't have
> to flex at the head tube- just there's a problem, could be frame
> alignment, whatever- there appears to be a tendancy to fail to
> negotiate a curve on a fast descent, not just "little bobby j" riding.
> keep an eye out this upcoming tdf for reoccurances

Frame alignment? You don't think numerous guys who spend hours a day
on a bike would have noticed?

Sounds to me like you're letting your imagination run away with you.

R

Morten Reippuert Knudsen

On 2008-06-19 01:06:20 +0200, caffetrieste <cycleto.com@gmail.com> said:

> How the HELL did Frank Schleck walk away from this one, get back on
> his bike, and finish the race?
>
> http://www.cycleto.com/index.php?op...=article&id=289

J. Breunell is a sissy compared to F.Shleck.

too bad for him: He lost victory in at least 3 monuments due to stupid
crashes: Amstel+Fleche 07, Giro Lombardia 07 and now overall TDS 08.

--
mvh. Morten Reippuert Knudsen

"Besides, if you can't get a decent kernal panic
or two in a month, what's the point of living?"

Morten Reippuert Knudsen

On 2008-06-19 02:56:23 +0200, "Maple Tree" <none@none.com> said:

> Wow, he is lucky he is not dead, how far did he fall and what was at the
> bottom ?

way down... its a tree top you ca see. Unless he was caught in the tre
+10 meters.
--
mvh. Morten Reippuert Knudsen

"Besides, if you can't get a decent kernal panic
or two in a month, what's the point of living?"

Amit Ghosh

On Jun 19, 10:26 am, raam...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> not severe flex, but just enough under load- or something else about
> the frame- last year at the tdf there were a couple of occaisions
> where the csc rider was unable to negoiate the curve on a descent,
> whereas other riders did- anyone re-watching the tdf2007 dvds might
> just take a note of the number of times a csc rider had trouble on a
> curve

dumbass,

zabriskie isn't riding a cervelo anymore but he's still crashing.

there's certain guys who have a choke gene or something and will
consistently find ways to sabotage themselves when they have a chance
to win (julich, millar, zabriskie).

frank schleck is a potential GC contender, but he shows signs of that
gene.

leebossa

it's funny but it seems that going over the ravine doesn't seem to be as
bad as you would think...the fatalities usually seem to happen when
falling right on the pavement. Unless of course you fall on rocks right
on your head...but seriously, it looked like he'd at least have broken
bones or something. But he gets up and finishes the stage!
raamman@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jun 18, 7:06 pm, caffetrieste <cycleto....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> How the HELL did Frank Schleck walk away from this one, get back on
>> his bike, and finish the race?
>>
>> http://www.cycleto.com/index.php?op...=article&id=289
>
> I've seen a few csc cervelo riders do that the past year or two- I
> think there's a problem with the carbon frames twisting at the head
> tube under side load or something like that

Earl

Morten Reippuert Knudsen wrote:
> On 2008-06-19 01:06:20 +0200, caffetrieste <cycleto.com@gmail.com> said:
>
>> How the HELL did Frank Schleck walk away from this one, get back on
>> his bike, and finish the race?
>>
>> http://www.cycleto.com/index.php?op...=article&id=289
>
> J. Breunell is a sissy compared to F.Shleck.
>
> too bad for him: He lost victory in at least 3 monuments due to stupid
> crashes: Amstel+Fleche 07, Giro Lombardia 07 and now overall TDS 08.
>


Here is a video synopsis of the phenomenon - Sudden realization of
potential for disaster leads to disaster
Also know as "not having the right stuff"
http://tinyurl.com/5thsr2

Scott

It's really very simple and has nothing to do with frame flex. In
some ways it was rider error, but not how you think.

It's not widely known (at least as far as I can tell from talking to
folks about steering geometry) but bikes have a built-in tendency to
upright themselves and go straight if you apply too much front brake
while turning without simultaneously applying a little bit more
downward pressure on the inside (relative to the direction of turn)
handlebar. Bikes with more trail exhibit this tendency worse than
bikes with less trail.

Ever see someone in the process of executing a turn in a crit, then
suddenly their bike pops up and they head straight out the back of the
turn? Too much front brake.

From watching the video I'd say that Schleck came in to the turn too
hot, panicked and grabbed a bit too much front brake. Once the bike
did its natural thing and straightened up, he made it worse by 1)
braking more, and 2) taking his foot out of the pedal.

If he'd eased up on the front brake just a tad and committed a little
more force on the inside bar, he'd have been fine. Once he over-
braked, everything he did made it worse. He obviously wasn't going
too fast for the turn 'cause Fothen didn't have any problems.

Howard Kveck

In article <2420a6ac-151f-4da2-8f8e-343f194e6897@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
Scott <hendricks_scott@hotmail.com> wrote:

> It's really very simple and has nothing to do with frame flex. In
> some ways it was rider error, but not how you think.
>
> It's not widely known (at least as far as I can tell from talking to
> folks about steering geometry) but bikes have a built-in tendency to
> upright themselves and go straight if you apply too much front brake
> while turning without simultaneously applying a little bit more
> downward pressure on the inside (relative to the direction of turn)
> handlebar. Bikes with more trail exhibit this tendency worse than
> bikes with less trail.
>
> Ever see someone in the process of executing a turn in a crit, then
> suddenly their bike pops up and they head straight out the back of the
> turn? Too much front brake.
>
> From watching the video I'd say that Schleck came in to the turn too
> hot, panicked and grabbed a bit too much front brake. Once the bike
> did its natural thing and straightened up, he made it worse by 1)
> braking more, and 2) taking his foot out of the pedal.
>
> If he'd eased up on the front brake just a tad and committed a little
> more force on the inside bar, he'd have been fine. Once he over-
> braked, everything he did made it worse. He obviously wasn't going
> too fast for the turn 'cause Fothen didn't have any problems.

I agree with all of that but I'd also add in that he might have also gotten a bit
of target fixation going. Once he saw that he was headed toward the rail, he kept
looking at it and that was where he kept going. It is a natural inclination to use
the front brake more, as we know that it works better. Just not in cases like this.

--
tanx,
Howard

The bloody pubs are bloody dull
The bloody clubs are bloody full
Of bloody girls and bloody guys
With bloody murder in their eyes

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?