Pics of Campa 11 speed

Lou Holtman

Tom Kunich wrote:
> "Lou Holtman" <lholditniet@planet.nl> wrote in message
> news:485fced3$1_4@news4us.nl...
>>
>> I don't know Tom. Who do you think is ripping you off at a price of $320?
>
> I don't think anyone is ripping me off. After all I have the option to
> buy or not according to my own standards.
>
> So why do you believe that a cheaper 9-speed group which wears longer
> and costs less would be some sort of anathema?
>
>


I don't, but I think there is no market for another company to offer
such a group. See how much trouble SRAM has with their road stuff.

Lou

Shawn

Lou Holtman wrote:

> Just to PO Campagnolo? They OFFER 11 speed, they don't put a gun to your
> head to buy it.

No, that would be Shimano ;-)


Shawn

Tom Kunich

"Lou Holtman" <lholditniet@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:485fdabe_3@news4us.nl...
> Tom Kunich wrote:
>> "Lou Holtman" <lholditniet@planet.nl> wrote in message
>> news:485fced3$1_4@news4us.nl...
>>>
>>> I don't know Tom. Who do you think is ripping you off at a price of
>>> $320?
>>
>> I don't think anyone is ripping me off. After all I have the option to
>> buy or not according to my own standards.
>>
>> So why do you believe that a cheaper 9-speed group which wears longer and
>> costs less would be some sort of anathema?
>
> I don't, but I think there is no market for another company to offer such
> a group. See how much trouble SRAM has with their road stuff.

Firstly, SRAM knows that they won't explode on the market. Cyclists are
usually conservative and will take a while to move into the SRAM market. But
they will make it if they hang in there and supply GOOD equipment.

Secondly, we're talking a different market segment. I could see 7-speed and
then 8-speed and finally 9-speed because it required you to change your
cassette progressively less and less. However, with the advent of the
9-speed it no longer gave you any notable advantage to get 10 or now 11
speeds whereas the companies supplying these components intend eventually to
end production of the lesser speeds.

A Muzi

>>> Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>> Also on this side of the pond SRAM is a non issue on road bikes, even on
>>>> complete bikes.

>> Derk wrote:
>>> In Germany the big mail order companies offer SRAM groups on their bikes
>>> (Rose, Canyon if I'm not mistaken).

> A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> Hell, even we 'offer' them. Unlike mailorder outfits we have built
>> ready-to-ride bikes. How are actual sales?

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> Is it really a shock that SRAM is small potatoes three years after they
> started?

I don't know but my feeling is that although we do a strong business
with SRAM in other areas, a new product introduction at Chorus price
level is tough work. Had they gone after the higher volume Centaur (or
even Veloce) price point first it may have fared better.

SRAM Red is cool but Record level customers haven't taken that leap as yet.

Regarding 'only 3 years', both STi and Ergo sold very well from their
inception.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

Tom Kunich

"A Muzi" <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote in message
news:7f991$48600d86$448@news.teranews.com...
>
> SRAM Red is cool but Record level customers haven't taken that leap as
> yet.
>
> Regarding 'only 3 years', both STi and Ergo sold very well from their
> inception.

But they were companies that were very well known and also they were
introduced when the 60's generation was riding mountain bikes and thinking
that anything "new" was good. That generation is older now and still the
majority of riders presently but they are now more conservative in buying
habits.

I expect SRAM to succeed though like you I think that it was unwise of them
to go after the top end market. Look at how Shimano did it - they couldn't
compete with Campy or Suntour so they slipped into the Mountain Bike
marketplace and before you know it they put Suntour out of business and
almost destroyed Campy as well.

Helmut Springer

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> I expect SRAM to succeed though like you I think that it was
> unwise of them to go after the top end market. Look at how Shimano
> did it - they couldn't compete with Campy or Suntour so they
> slipped into the Mountain Bike marketplace and before you know it
> they put Suntour out of business and almost destroyed Campy as
> well.

Shimano did introduce SIS (indexed shifting) with DuraAce in the pro
peloton, top down. Campagnolo only survived by image and
traditionalism of their (road) customer base until they caught up on
technology. SunTour was slightly behind on indexed shifting and
falied at first attempt, thus heavily losing in the OEM space.

--
MfG/Best regards
helmut springer panta rhei

Jay Beattie

On Jun 23, 2:34*pm, Helmut Springer <delta+use...@lug-s.org> wrote:
> Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
> > I expect SRAM to succeed though like you I think that it was
> > unwise of them to go after the top end market. Look at how Shimano
> > did it - they couldn't compete with Campy or Suntour so they
> > slipped into the Mountain Bike marketplace and before you know it
> > they put Suntour out of business and almost destroyed Campy as
> > well.
>
> Shimano did introduce SIS (indexed shifting) with DuraAce in the pro
> peloton, top down. *Campagnolo only survived by image and
> traditionalism of their (road) customer base until they caught up on
> technology. *SunTour was slightly behind on indexed shifting and
> falied at first attempt, thus heavily losing in the OEM space.

And when Campagnolo tried to "slip in to" the mountain bike market
place, it lost its shirt with Euclid. From my perspective, Shimano was
doing a fine job competing against Campagnolo before the mountain bike
craze. I bought my first Dura Ace group in '75 -- although I used a
SunTour derailleur. I also had an all Campy racing bike because that
is what you did back then. Your uber-bike had to have Campagnolo
equipment, even if the Shimano/SunTour set-up shifted better. Racing
on Japanese equipment was like not shaving your legs. Image did save
Campagnolo from financial ruin until it caught up with Shimano SIS/
STI. --- Jay Beattie.

M-gineering

Helmut Springer wrote:

> Shimano did introduce SIS (indexed shifting) with DuraAce in the pro
> peloton, top down.

after experiencing that they were getting nowhere with the Positron
bottom up approach
--
/Marten

info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl

Ryan Cousineau

In article
<fb9bb9e5-d3bb-4fcb-ad3d-15fe6bb8b539@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
Scott Gordo <blubberpuss@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Jun 21, 8:07*am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <pe...@vecchios.com>
> wrote:
> > On Jun 20, 3:20*pm, Scott Gordo <blubberp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Jun 18, 4:48*am, Derk <nob...@invalid.org> wrote:
> >
> > > >http://www.guidorubino.com/technews...olo-2009-ergopo...
> >
> > > > Derk
> >
> > > I unfortunately don't have experience with modern brifter Campy, but
> > > anyone else found 9 speed Shimano is reliable and easy to tune while
> > > 10 speed is fiddly? It may be just my experience, and somebody
> > > certainly was going to do it (and Campy has been overshadowed by SRAM
> > > lately) but I'm not looking forward to skinnier, more expensive
> > > chains.
> >
> > > Sure, I don't have to buy....
> >
> > As for Campagnolo being 'overshadowed' by Sram, I don't get this.
> > Campagnolo does little to no OEM at any level, shimano does gobs. Many
> > bikes that were spec'ed with shimano 105/ultegra/DA came out in 2008
> > with Rival/Force/Red..who lost market share was shimano, not
> > Campagnolo. In our little microcosm of a bike shop where we start with
> > a frame, where we have all three shifter types on demo bikes, most
> > still opt for Campagnolo(85%), followed by shimano, Zero so far for
> > Sram this year.
>
> I don't have bicycle retaler-type info, but by "overshadowed" I just
> mean that, perception-wise, SRAM is seen as bold and new and exciting
> while Campy is staid. Riders are excited to try the SRAM stuff, right?
> I don't see how it's a better system, but that's not what I'm
> questioning here. I'm talking about interest and hype and how they
> likely correspond with sales.

Well, speaking for myself, I just really like the action of Campy
brifters, and prefer them (not greatly, but enough to seek them out)
over Shimano.

For me (admittedly, hardly the definition of a market-making parts
consumer), the long run that SRAM has is to show some obvious
superiority, most preferably in something like shifting performance or
"feel." Given the apparently absurd one-way mechanism SRAM uses for
shifting, I think I'll need a pretty convincing test ride before I even
consider it.

Conversely, the SRAM PowerDome is so obviously the way to build a
super-light cassette (at a steep price!) that if I cared about cassette
weights, it would be the only choice on my list.

> In turn, I'm starting to see more and more bikes in the NYC area
> outfitted with SRAM. Not saying it's better or worse, and maybe
> they're taking some of Shimano's market too, but I would think that
> since Campy sells less OEM (compared to Shimano) that they're probably
> suffering more from SRAM's entries into the market. Plus, SRAM sells a
> good deal of OEM MTB and department store Grip Shift stuff too, areas
> where, for better or worse and AFAIK, Campy has no offerings.

SRAM and Shimano pursue similar means to their goals of global
domination, but never underestimate how expensive it can be to make
cheap things, and how valuable the top of the market is.

To belabor an already cliche example from another industry, VW/Audi
(VAG, along with several subsidary marques) is a diversified automaker
that sells one of everything from subcompact cheapness to supercars.
Porsche is a niche builder that basically sells expensive sportscars,
very expensive sportscars, and very expensive and fast SUVs.

It is astoundingly-profitable Porsche that is currently contemplating
buying diversified VAG, and perhaps largely to absorb their American
CAFE liabilities.

> The number of Campy bikes with, say, FSA cranks, can't be helping
> either.

The idea of Total Integration is a concept that has waxed and waned.
"All Campy" used to be the phrase that pays, and when they said "all,"
they meant the seatpost, too.

> I'm not rooting against Campy by any means, just a few observations. I
> suspect that they may have been anxious that SRAM might come out with
> 11 speed and reinforce my first point that Campy hasn't done anything
> very exciting lately.

At the risk of being cynical, SRAM hasn't done anything very exciting
lately, either.

I agree that going to 11 dives deeply into "it's for selling" territory,
but as far as I can tell the three road group players are currently
trying to compete on weight and differentiate on shifter feel, with
occasional indeterminate forays into claiming superior shifting
performance, which is a rather more hazy argument.

Going to 11 is a simple (simplistic?) differentiator. I think that
electronic groups, for better or for worse, promise to be a much more
important sort of change.

Meanwhile, not to be left behind, Shimano is changing its pull ratio,
which is good because it probably will improve shifting quality, but bad
because it lets us play the Incompatability Game again.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

Helmut Springer

M-gineering <ikmotgeenspam@m-gineering.nl> wrote:
>> Shimano did introduce SIS (indexed shifting) with DuraAce in the
>> pro peloton, top down.
>
> after experiencing that they were getting nowhere with the
> Positron bottom up approach

Yup. Though when I got my first bottom line Bianchi with Positron I
always wondered why my friends with expensive shiny Campagnolo had
to fiddle with their downtube shifters when my system, cheap plastic
and steel, sat on the stem and simply clicked and did the job 8)

Still seeing Positron equiped bikes in daily usage here (Germany).

--
MfG/Best regards
helmut springer panta rhei

Qui si parla Campagnolo

On Jun 23, 8:34*am, Scott Gordo <blubberp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 21, 8:07*am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <pe...@vecchios.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jun 20, 3:20*pm, Scott Gordo <blubberp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jun 18, 4:48*am, Derk <nob...@invalid.org> wrote:
>
> > > >http://www.guidorubino.com/technews...olo-2009-ergopo...
>
> > > > Derk
>
> > > I unfortunately don't have experience with modern brifter Campy, but
> > > anyone else found 9 speed Shimano is reliable and easy to tune while
> > > 10 speed is fiddly? It may be just my experience, and somebody
> > > certainly was going to do it (and Campy has been overshadowed by SRAM
> > > lately) but I'm not looking forward to skinnier, more expensive
> > > chains.
>
> > > Sure, I don't have to buy....
>
> > As for Campagnolo being 'overshadowed' by Sram, I don't get this.
> > Campagnolo does little to no OEM at any level, shimano does gobs. Many
> > bikes that were spec'ed with shimano 105/ultegra/DA came out in 2008
> > with Rival/Force/Red..who lost market share was shimano, not
> > Campagnolo. In our little microcosm of a bike shop where we start with
> > a frame, where we have all three shifter types on demo bikes, most
> > still opt for Campagnolo(85%), followed by shimano, Zero so far for
> > Sram this year.
>
> I don't have bicycle retaler-type info, but by "overshadowed" I just
> mean that, perception-wise, SRAM is seen as bold and new and exciting
> while Campy is staid. Riders are excited to try the SRAM stuff, right?


Seems those that get their stuff for free are excited as the ones we
have seen that have gotten a closeout Specialized with Force or Rival
seem excited. Most of the people looking for new bikes see our sram
bike, nod a bit and then ask about 7900 or SR.

Interest is driven by hype, not the other way around, IMO.

> I don't see how it's a better system, but that's not what I'm
> questioning here. I'm talking about interest and hype and how they
> likely correspond with sales.
>
> In turn, I'm starting to see more and more bikes in the NYC area
> outfitted with SRAM. Not saying it's better or worse, and maybe
> they're taking some of Shimano's market too, but I would think that
> since Campy sells less OEM (compared to Shimano) that they're probably
> suffering more from SRAM's entries into the market. Plus, SRAM sells a
> good deal of OEM MTB and department store Grip Shift stuff too, areas
> where, for better or worse and AFAIK, Campy has no offerings.
>
> The number of Campy bikes with, say, FSA cranks, can't be helping
> either.

Why Campagnolo made UT. Plus we are seeing more and more FSA products
with problems as they get 'older'.
>
> I'm not rooting against Campy by any means, just a few observations. I
> suspect that they may have been anxious that SRAM might come out with
> 11 speed and reinforce my first point that Campy hasn't done anything
> very exciting lately.

I really wonder if Campagnolo does anything as a direct result of what
shimano or sram does, at least not since about 1990 when shimano
showed that lever mounted shifting on road bikes was here to stay.

It's Chris

Here we go again!

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