Hydration question

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com

On Jun 16, 2:35*pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 05:32:26 -0700 (PDT), "D'ohBoy"
>
>
>
> <peteng...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >So I was doing about 12 oz per hour.
> (snips)
> >, 200 lbs).
>
> That's not a lot of liquid in warm weather considering your size. For
> me, at moderate intensity in moderately warm weather I try for a
> minimum of 20oz per hour and I'm 40 lbs less.
>
> I think you could drink more liquid and keep the liquid down if it had
> salt in it.

I agree, but I don't think size play as big a role as individual
variation. I too aim for about 20floz per hour in similar temps, yet
I'm 50-60lbs more (than you, not OP). I like having one bottle of
water and one of some sort of sports/electrolyte type drink. The water
to wash food down and rinse the palette, the sports drink for calories
and salts.

Joseph

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com

On Jun 16, 3:54*pm, "andresm...@aol.com" <andresm...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Jun 16, 6:35*am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 05:32:26 -0700 (PDT), "D'ohBoy"
>
> > <peteng...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >So I was doing about 12 oz per hour.
> > (snips)
> > >, 200 lbs).
>
> > That's not a lot of liquid in warm weather considering your size. For
> > me, at moderate intensity in moderately warm weather I try for a
> > minimum of 20oz per hour and I'm 40 lbs less.
>
> > I think you could drink more liquid and keep the liquid down if it had
> > salt in it.
>
> It doesn't sound like a liquid problem to me. It sounds more like he
> was exhausted, as Tom suggested. After several hours of riding, even
> with proper hydration and nutrition, the body starts getting very
> tired. If you are not very fit and used to this sort of rides getting
> sick after several hours on the saddle is not uncommon. Pushing the
> body to the limit of an effort can make you sick and nauseated.

I don't think that level of fitness is that big a factor. I think
often people with lower fitness get caught out on long rides like that
because the have fuel/hydration issues due to their lack of experience
and planning, which is a result of their not hvaing had the chance to
get to know their own responses to the types of stress from these
rides. If you get nauseous, something is wrong.

>
> For some reason, it seems that when I get a little nauseated, the best
> thing to do is to ride through it. Stopping and letting my heart rate
> drop too much will make me feel worse. When I am ridding uphills with
> groups, I always get dropped, since I am a little chunky. In the
> effort to keep up, I always ride to the point where i sart to get
> sick. If I slow down too much, I will start dry heaving. I need to
> force myself not too lower my effort too much.

Riding through it is perhaps the best option, but I still think
getting nauseous is an indication of something wrong. I too have
plenty experience getting dropped (and as you well know this entails
lots of max effort trying to keep up) and nausea has never been a part
of it. That isn't to say I know everything there is to know about
hydration, just that at least by chance, I've never eaten such that I
had problems of that sort.

Joseph

Tom Kunich

<joseph.santaniello@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d793986d-47f3-4c0f-8160-144aa13e9412@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>
> I don't think that level of fitness is that big a factor. I think
> often people with lower fitness get caught out on long rides like that
> because the have fuel/hydration issues due to their lack of experience
> and planning, which is a result of their not hvaing had the chance to
> get to know their own responses to the types of stress from these
> rides. If you get nauseous, something is wrong.

Nausea is a pretty clear indication that your body is putting more out than
it's taking in. And if you're eating and drinking and still getting nauseous
it can only mean that you're riding over your ability.

> Riding through it is perhaps the best option, but I still think
> getting nauseous is an indication of something wrong.

You cannot "ride through it" if it's caused by over-extending yourself.

Tom Kunich

<joseph.santaniello@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6640d683-3839-452e-9c57-6db48d86a75e@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> I agree, but I don't think size play as big a role as individual
> variation. I too aim for about 20floz per hour in similar temps, yet
> I'm 50-60lbs more (than you, not OP). I like having one bottle of
> water and one of some sort of sports/electrolyte type drink. The water
> to wash food down and rinse the palette, the sports drink for calories
> and salts.

A guy told me that you can train yourself to ride with minimal fluids and
food intake. I tried it and it's true. I can do 50 miles on one bottle of
water and stopping for a coffee and donut. You do have to remember that you
require SOMETHING and you can't do it with nothing at all.

Lou Holtman

Tom Kunich wrote:
> <joseph.santaniello@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:6640d683-3839-452e-9c57-6db48d86a75e@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> I agree, but I don't think size play as big a role as individual
>> variation. I too aim for about 20floz per hour in similar temps, yet
>> I'm 50-60lbs more (than you, not OP). I like having one bottle of
>> water and one of some sort of sports/electrolyte type drink. The water
>> to wash food down and rinse the palette, the sports drink for calories
>> and salts.
>
> A guy told me that you can train yourself to ride with minimal fluids
> and food intake. I tried it and it's true. I can do 50 miles on one
> bottle of water and stopping for a coffee and donut. You do have to
> remember that you require SOMETHING and you can't do it with nothing at
> all.
>


When you glycogen supply in your muscles and liver are up to their max,
you can ride for up to 2-2.5 hours (medium effort) without eating at
all. I do it all the time after work for my 75-80 km rides. I only drink
one bottle of something. When you are home you fuel up because the
your supply is empty.

Lou

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com

On Jun 16, 7:35*pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:d793986d-47f3-4c0f-8160-144aa13e9412@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > I don't think that level of fitness is that big a factor. I think
> > often people with lower fitness get caught out on long rides like that
> > because the have fuel/hydration issues due to their lack of experience
> > and planning, which is a result of their not hvaing had the chance to
> > get to know their own responses to the types of stress from these
> > rides. If you get nauseous, something is wrong.
>
> Nausea is a pretty clear indication that your body is putting more out than
> it's taking in. And if you're eating and drinking and still getting nauseous
> it can only mean that you're riding over your ability.

Or that you are eating or drinking too much for how much left over
capacity your body has to deal with digestion, etc. So it is sort of
the same thing. If you are going at it full tilt, you won't be able to
process much food, though you will need it that much more.

>
> > Riding through it is perhaps the best option, but I still think
> > getting nauseous is an indication of something wrong.
>
> You cannot "ride through it" if it's caused by over-extending yourself.

But you can if it is from having excess water swill around in your
gut. Since time is really the only thing that will help, stopping
doesn't really accomplish anything. You feel lousy anyway. But I agree
you would probably need to ease off.

Joseph

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com

On Jun 16, 7:58*pm, Lou Holtman <lholditn...@planet.nl> wrote:
> Tom Kunich wrote:
> > <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:6640d683-3839-452e-9c57-6db48d86a75e@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> I agree, but I don't think size play as big a role as individual
> >> variation. I too aim for about 20floz per hour in similar temps, yet
> >> I'm 50-60lbs more (than you, not OP). I like having one bottle of
> >> water and one of some sort of sports/electrolyte type drink. The water
> >> to wash food down and rinse the palette, the sports drink for calories
> >> and salts.
>
> > A guy told me that you can train yourself to ride with minimal fluids
> > and food intake. I tried it and it's true. I can do 50 miles on one
> > bottle of water and stopping for a coffee and donut. You do have to
> > remember that you require SOMETHING and you can't do it with nothing at
> > all.
>
> When you glycogen supply in your muscles and liver are up to their max,
> you can ride for up to 2-2.5 hours (medium effort) without eating at
> all. I do it all the time after work for my 75-80 km rides. I only drink
> * one bottle of something. When you are home you fuel up because the
> your supply is empty.
>
> Lou

Same here. I only bring more than water if the ride is going to be
more than 3 hours medium effort, and then it's something light like an
apple, or 1.5 hours if it is high intensity like a race, in which case
I opt for liquid calories. And on the medium effort rides, I sometimes
dispense with the water if it is not hot out.

Joseph

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com

On Jun 16, 7:37*pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:6640d683-3839-452e-9c57-6db48d86a75e@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > I agree, but I don't think size play as big a role as individual
> > variation. I too aim for about 20floz per hour in similar temps, yet
> > I'm 50-60lbs more (than you, not OP). I like having one bottle of
> > water and one of some sort of sports/electrolyte type drink. The water
> > to wash food down and rinse the palette, the sports drink for calories
> > and salts.
>
> A guy told me that you can train yourself to ride with minimal fluids and
> food intake. I tried it and it's true. I can do 50 miles on one bottle of
> water and stopping for a coffee and donut. You do have to remember that you
> require SOMETHING and you can't do it with nothing at all.

No doubt in my mind about being able to train for minimal intake. It
may however be 99% half mental.

Joseph

andresmuro@aol.com

On Jun 16, 10:03 am, "D'ohBoy" <peteng...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jun 16, 8:54 am, "andresm...@aol.com" <andresm...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jun 16, 6:35 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 05:32:26 -0700 (PDT), "D'ohBoy"
>
> > > <peteng...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > >So I was doing about 12 oz per hour.
> > > (snips)
> > > >, 200 lbs).
>
> > > That's not a lot of liquid in warm weather considering your size. For
> > > me, at moderate intensity in moderately warm weather I try for a
> > > minimum of 20oz per hour and I'm 40 lbs less.
>
> > > I think you could drink more liquid and keep the liquid down if it had
> > > salt in it.
>
> > It doesn't sound like a liquid problem to me. It sounds more like he
> > was exhausted, as Tom suggested. After several hours of riding, even
> > with proper hydration and nutrition, the body starts getting very
> > tired. If you are not very fit and used to this sort of rides getting
> > sick after several hours on the saddle is not uncommon. Pushing the
> > body to the limit of an effort can make you sick and nauseated.
>
> > For some reason, it seems that when I get a little nauseated, the best
> > thing to do is to ride through it. Stopping and letting my heart rate
> > drop too much will make me feel worse. When I am ridding uphills with
> > groups, I always get dropped, since I am a little chunky. In the
> > effort to keep up, I always ride to the point where i sart to get
> > sick. If I slow down too much, I will start dry heaving. I need to
> > force myself not too lower my effort too much.
>
> I do ~150 miles per week in similarly hilly terrain to the ride in
> question and not JRA. I have ridden a number of rides (3-4)
> approaching this difficulty already this year and believe that I was
> sufficiently prepared. I have 1400 road miles prior to the ride and
> 4x/week 1 - 2 hour trainer sessions complete with intervals and heart
> rate monitoring to insure the training value in the Jan - March time
> period.
>
> Interesting with the 'push thru it' strategem. I don't think that
> would have been possible in this case.
>
> D'ohBoy

It sounds like you are probably in pretty good shape. However, in my
experience nausea is a common problem of very hard efforts, either
sustained efforts or sprints. It is likely that you were pushing your
body to a pretty intense level of effort and that is what made you
sick. That sounds more likely than too much water.

I agree that there is a point of no return when you will start heaving
even if you try to push through. There was a time in my life when I
would do sprint training. I would feel like puking after every sprint.
After a few weeks of doing this sort of training, I wouldn't get the
nausea effect any more. However, its been ages since I tried to do
sprint training. I can sustain pretty intense aerobic efforts,
however, if I have to chase a group out of a corner or on a hill for a
long time, I will get nauseated. I know when to back off now. It is
better to back off before the point of no return. Even if I get
dropped, it is never as bad as if I cross the barrier. Every year, I
promise myself to do some sprint training so that I won't have to go
through the nausea experience. I have, so far broken that promise 15
times in a row. I usually build my aerobic capacity so that I can
tolerate most efforts at aerobic threshold w/o getting dropped and I
accept getting dropped on sprints or hills.

andresmuro@aol.com

On Jun 16, 11:37 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:6640d683-3839-452e-9c57-6db48d86a75e@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > I agree, but I don't think size play as big a role as individual
> > variation. I too aim for about 20floz per hour in similar temps, yet
> > I'm 50-60lbs more (than you, not OP). I like having one bottle of
> > water and one of some sort of sports/electrolyte type drink. The water
> > to wash food down and rinse the palette, the sports drink for calories
> > and salts.
>
> A guy told me that you can train yourself to ride with minimal fluids and
> food intake. I tried it and it's true. I can do 50 miles on one bottle of
> water and stopping for a coffee and donut. You do have to remember that you
> require SOMETHING and you can't do it with nothing at all.

Its not that hard to do this on cool weather. However, once it gets
too warm, it can get very tough. On a cool day, your fat and glycogen
stores and a little fluid can get you through the first half of the
ride. The coffee, doughnut and the rest of the fluid will get you
through the second half. If you are doing this with a fast group and
don't take any pulls, it is even easier.

mlogan@gmail.com

On Jun 15, 6:10 am, "D'ohBoy" <peteng...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi!
>
> On a 200k challenge ride (12,000 vert) yesterday and started to feel
> weak and bad. Bonky, perhaps? No. Eating fairly well...prolly about
> a couple hundred calories every hour and a half or so... hydrating
> well, or so I thought.

I used to have similar problems to what you describe on much shorter
rides (~80 miles) than that, and the way I solved it was by making
sure to eat about 200-250 calories (e.g. various bars, dates,
sandwiches, whatever) for every 10 miles of riding, not counting
lunch. I don't usually do rides with much less than 60 vertical feet
per mile, but I'd probably bring less food on a flatter ride. I weigh
about 190 with my bike, so this works out to about .13 calories per
pound-mile. You are probably 230 with your bike, and you mentioned
you were eating a couple hundred calories (I'll say 300) every hour
and a half, or 20 miles at your pace. This is more like .065 calories
per pound mile, for similar terrain.

My point being that I eat twice as much as you do while riding
(adjusted for weight), and when I get home from riding, I am still
hungry enough to eat about 2x as much as I would eat on a day that I
don't ride.

I think you aren't eating enough.

-Mark

Patrick Lamb

On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 06:10:30 -0700 (PDT), "D'ohBoy"
<petengail@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On a 200k challenge ride (12,000 vert) yesterday and started to feel
>weak and bad. Bonky, perhaps? No. Eating fairly well...prolly about
>a couple hundred calories every hour and a half or so... hydrating
>well, or so I thought.
....
>I don't think I was over-hydrating. I was drinking approximately a 28
>oz bottle (one of those big ones) every 25 miles. As far as I know,
>and as my riding buddy says, I am *ALWAYS* under-hydrated. It was
>sunny and warm, around 80F, but not humid. Just can't figure out
>what happened.

I think this is one of those things where you need to treat yourself
as an experiment of one. Try eating salt, and see if that helps; if
not, try drinking water; then eat more PBJ, fig newtons, bananas,
oranges... Something might help.

Over on this experiment of one, I weighed myself before and after a
two hour ride. Drank right about 48 oz, lost 3 pounds, implying that
I need to drink a quart an hour (about as much as my stomach can
process). Thank goodness it was a relatively cool day, only about 80
F. I've weighed myself losing twice as much when it's hot.

Pat

Email address works as is.

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com

On Jun 16, 11:16*pm, mlo...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jun 15, 6:10 am, "D'ohBoy" <peteng...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi!
>
> > On a 200k challenge ride (12,000 vert) yesterday and started to feel
> > weak and bad. *Bonky, perhaps? *No. *Eating fairly well...prolly about
> > a couple hundred calories every hour and a half or so... hydrating
> > well, or so I thought.
>
> I used to have similar problems to what you describe on much shorter
> rides (~80 miles) than that, and the way I solved it was by making
> sure to eat about 200-250 calories (e.g. various bars, dates,
> sandwiches, whatever) for every 10 miles of riding, not counting
> lunch. *I don't usually do rides with much less than 60 vertical feet
> per mile, but I'd probably bring less food on a flatter ride. *I weigh
> about 190 with my bike, so this works out to about .13 calories per
> pound-mile. *You are probably 230 with your bike, and you mentioned
> you were eating a couple hundred calories (I'll say 300) every hour
> and a half, or 20 miles at your pace. *This is more like .065 calories
> per pound mile, for similar terrain.
>
> My point being that I eat twice as much as you do while riding
> (adjusted for weight), and when I get home from riding, I am still
> hungry enough to eat about 2x as much as I would eat on a day that I
> don't ride.
>
> I think you aren't eating enough.
>
> -Mark

I think you were eating more than you could process, but the ride was
not long enough for this to come back to haunt you.

Here is some interesting info:

http://tinyurl.com/3zjke2

This one is good too:

http://tinyurl.com/3qb38p

One of the reasons people have problems on long rides is they use
their experiences on shorter rides to help them decide what to do in
terms of fuel/hydration, and it is not always applicable.

The short version is that somebody cannot absorb more than 200-300
calories per hour through their gut while exercising at any reasonable
intensity level. The number will depend on a number of factors,
including rider size, but very often people consume way more than
that. On a short ride that won't make a difference, as there isn't
time for the system to get backed up, but on a long ride there is, and
then you are in for some unpleasantness.

The first link above touches on salt in the diet which relates to a
pet theory of mine. Sometimes on rides I see folks whose clothes are
crusted white with salt. These are often the same people who suffer
cramps, and talk about the importance of salt intake. The body doesn't
get rid of necessary things, so all this extra salt on the clothes
makes me think they have too much salt, as opposed to not enough. I
think their daily diet has way too much salt and this is in their
bodies from the start, screwing up their osmality. So the first step
in reducing cramps and fluid absorption problems is to have (perhaps
lots) less salt on a daily basis, not to up the salt during the event.

Fuel during a ride comes from glycogen stores in the muscles and
liver, fat, and from calories consumed while riding. Each one has
limiting factors, and finding the balance between them is the key.

Joseph

Peter Cole

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 05:32:26 -0700 (PDT), "D'ohBoy"
> <petengail@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> So I was doing about 12 oz per hour.
> (snips)
>> , 200 lbs).
>
> That's not a lot of liquid in warm weather considering your size. For
> me, at moderate intensity in moderately warm weather I try for a
> minimum of 20oz per hour and I'm 40 lbs less.
>
> I think you could drink more liquid and keep the liquid down if it had
> salt in it.

I agree that this might well have been a salt thing. Other than an
occasional (very) V-8, I don't find salt in drinks very appealing. I
used to seek out salty foods, but found it was hard to get salt w/o
grease, and there's just so many pretzels a man can eat. My solution was
to empty out some nasty herbal capsules and refill with a 2/3 salt, 1/3
bicarb mix and pop those on long (brevet) hot rides when I felt my
thirst going away or fluids started making me nauseas.