Old Street roundabout accident. "Life-changing injury".

spindrift

A truly chilling euphemism:

11 June 2008

A CYCLIST suffered horrific injuries and may lose his leg after being
struck by
a lorry in a horror collision at "the most dangerous junction in
Islington".

The 30-year-old was hit by a heavy goods vehicle at Old Street
Roundabout in
Finsbury during the height of rush hour yesterday (Wednesday) morning.
He was
taken to the Royal Free Hospital with leg wounds that police describe
as
"potentially life changing." Traffic jams went back to the Angel and
Pentonville
Road.

The Gazette has previously reported that cyclists view the roundabout
as a death
trap - with a cyclist left paralysed after
breaking his back at the spot two months ago. The latest accident has
led to
fresh calls for action before someone is killed.

John Ackers, of Islington Cyclists' Action Group, said: "This is a
horrific
injury. We are very sorry for the cyclist and hope that he fully
recovers. It is
definitely one of the most dangerous junctions in Islington - I can't
think of
any roundabout that is more dangerous. There are three lanes of
traffic and it
is very difficult for cyclists to move between them. Any measure to
reduce
traffic speed and volume on the roundabout would make it safer."

Local councillor George Allan, a keen cyclist, said: "I am deeply
sorry to hear
of another cyclist being hit. We must hope this gentleman survives his
injuries
and fully recovers. Lucky is probably not the word - any collision
between a
lorry and a cyclist is extremely serious."

He added: "The roundabout was made much safer about four years ago by
the
introduction of traffic lights and advanced stopping lines for
cyclists. But
there is an irreducible minimum of risk at the roundabout and I hope
TfL will
look at what more can be done."

A police spokeswoman said: "We were called to an accident at 7.50am to
a
collision between a lorry and a pedal cyclist. A 30-year-old man was
taken to
hospital with potential life changing but not life threatening
injuries." A TfL
spokesman said: "We are always looking to improve safety for cyclists.
It is one
of our top priorities."



Grim news. That roundabout and Aldgate are both junctions of death.

Pete Biggs

john.sabine@gmail.com wrote:
> On 12 Jun, 12:03, spindrift <newty...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> A truly chilling euphemism:
>
> What? Accident?
>
>> Grim news. That roundabout and Aldgate are both junctions of death.
>
> While extending every sympathy to the gentleman in question, I have
> never really understood the fashion for regarding certain road layouts
> as a menace in and of themselves.
>
> I use both the Old St roundabout and the Aldgate gyratory (and the
> Elephant, and the New Cross gyratory, and the Bricklayers Arms,
> and Hyde Park Corner, and Marble Arch, and the Euston Road)
> on a regular basis, and as a confident (and fairly fast) cyclist I've
> never had any trouble on them.
>
> I can see why someone less assertive would find them difficult
> (and dreaded the Elephant when I first started cycling in London)
> but this, surely, is a matter of skills and confidence.

So what do we do?

1. Improve cyclists' skill, speed and confidence? How?

2. Change the junctions so not so much skill, speed and confidence is needed
to be safe?

3. Do nothing and allow more people to be injured and killed?

~PB

john.sabine@gmail.com

On 12 Jun, 12:03, spindrift <newty...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> A truly chilling euphemism:

What? Accident?

> Grim news. That roundabout and Aldgate are both junctions of death.

While extending every sympathy to the gentleman in question, I have
never really understood the fashion for regarding certain road layouts
as a menace in and of themselves.

I use both the Old St roundabout and the Aldgate gyratory (and the
Elephant, and the New Cross gyratory, and the Bricklayers Arms,
and Hyde Park Corner, and Marble Arch, and the Euston Road)
on a regular basis, and as a confident (and fairly fast) cyclist I've
never had any trouble on them.

I can see why someone less assertive would find them difficult
(and dreaded the Elephant when I first started cycling in London)
but this, surely, is a matter of skills and confidence.

John

john.sabine@gmail.com

On 12 Jun, 18:43, "Pete Biggs"
<p...@pomegranateremovehighlyimpracticalfruitbiggs.tc> wrote:

> >> That roundabout and Aldgate are both junctions of death.

> > but this, surely, is a matter of skills and confidence.
>
> So what do we do?
> 1. Improve cyclists' skill, speed and confidence? How?

Is part of it the need for a cultural shift back to mass recognition
of
cycling as transport, and to a position where it's normalised, where
skill to some level is expected (in much the same way as it's
generally expected that most adults will be able to drive)?

I think cycle training for children plays a part (and I guess that's
why
things like Tom Crispin's cycle to swim scheme are great - they
normalise cycling from an early age, and hopefully the kids don't
then automatically aspire just to drive as soon as they're 17).

I'm not so sure about cycle training for adults. On the one hand
I do think the subsidised schemes run by many of the London
boroughs are a good thing, but on the other I'm not sure whether
offering training risks pandering to the 'cycling is dangerous'
lobby.

Certainly, I think the current anti drink- and drug-driving ads being
run by TFL are ill thought through (on the backs of buses, with a
picture of a FisherPrice-style steering wheel and a slogan along
the lines of 'lose your licence and you're back to being a kid
again') - they reinforce assumptions about expecting to drive
everywhere, and they infantilise non-motorised transport.

> 2. Change the junctions so not so much skill, speed and confidence is needed
> to be safe?

Well, it's not the idea of changing them I object to, it's more
the demonisation of the junction itself. Any collisions are highly
likely to be the result of inattention, misjudgment or negligence
on the part of one or more road users, be they pedestrian,
cyclist or driver.

The fact that the road design may promote misjudgment or
exacerbate its consequences doesn't justify phrasing like
'junctions of death,' which in itself tends to allow road users
to disclaim their responsibilities.

And I'm not convinced that redesign is likely to prove a
panacea - even if it is done according to current best practice,
which can't be guaranteed, there's surely good odds that in
a few years time we will decide that all our current assumptions
and principles were utterly wrong and in fact caused more
dangers.

Come on, this is Usenet. You can't expect answers.

> 3. Do nothing and allow more people to be injured and killed?

Seems to be the default option in many ways. Killing 8 or so a day
on the roads is pretty good compared to most other countries - as
long as you or your friends aren't among the 8.

J

Martin

john.sabine@gmail.com wrote:
> On 12 Jun, 18:43, "Pete Biggs"
> <p...@pomegranateremovehighlyimpracticalfruitbiggs.tc> wrote:
>
>>>> That roundabout and Aldgate are both junctions of death.
>
>>> but this, surely, is a matter of skills and confidence.
>> So what do we do?
>> 1. Improve cyclists' skill, speed and confidence? How?
>
> Is part of it the need for a cultural shift back to mass recognition
> of
> cycling as transport, and to a position where it's normalised, where
> skill to some level is expected (in much the same way as it's
> generally expected that most adults will be able to drive)?

I agree. Part of the problem is when you do apply skills and knowledge,
and some motorists try and intimidate you for that. It discourages good
cycling skills, especially when said motorists are ignorant of the law
and what good cycling skills are. (e.g. W481BFC)
I think that better motorist education would help here.

>> 2. Change the junctions so not so much skill, speed and confidence is needed
>> to be safe?
>
> Well, it's not the idea of changing them I object to, it's more
> the demonisation of the junction itself. Any collisions are highly
> likely to be the result of inattention, misjudgment or negligence
> on the part of one or more road users, be they pedestrian,
> cyclist or driver.

I think that there some junctions are worse than others, and it would
help if the junction was redesigned. I can think of a few junctions near
me that are especially bad.
A good example is that cycle paths are more dangerous due to increased
danger at junctions.


>> 3. Do nothing and allow more people to be injured and killed?

The problem is what do you do?

ISTR reading that your life is valued at something like 30,000 pounds
per year of life left. I don't know if it is working life, or total life
expectancy.
If it takes 100M pounds to redesign a junction, that it expected to save
one life, then the government/council will not bother.
If it takes 10,000 pounds to save the life of one person per year, then
it will be worth it. Unfortunately white paint is cheap, and does not
solve many problems.

congokid

In article
<be899162-963b-4f8a-ab31-501bbea71a88@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
john.sabine@gmail.com writes

>I use both the Old St roundabout and the Aldgate gyratory (and the
>Elephant, and the New Cross gyratory, and the Bricklayers Arms,
>and Hyde Park Corner, and Marble Arch, and the Euston Road)
>on a regular basis, and as a confident (and fairly fast) cyclist I've
>never had any trouble on them.

I used the Aldgate one on my commute home from work for 6 months and
never liked it. The 'straight' was simply an invitation for all the boy
racers to put their collective foot down in a bid to beat the lights at
the end, and coincided exactly with where I needed to change lanes.
--
congokid
Eating out in London? Read my tips...
http://congokid.com

Sir Jeremy

On 12 Jun, 12:03, spindrift <newty...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Grim news. That roundabout and Aldgate are both junctions of death.

If they're that bad then either avoid them or get off and push

Daniel Barlow

john.sabine@gmail.com writes:

> I use both the Old St roundabout and [...]

As do I, and I'm actually struggling to think how it could be
considered dangerous anyway. There are traffic lights on every arm.

About the only thing I can think of is the risk of being left-hooked
if you use the cycle lanes and you're not turning left, but that's
not any more encouraged on this junction than it is anywhere else such
lanes exist.


-dan

Nick

spindrift wrote:

>
>
> Grim news. That roundabout and Aldgate are both junctions of death.

I had a bad accident on the Old street roundabout. Foot slipped off my
peddle and I went over the handle bars, bad road rash but as I was slap
bang in the middle of the lane there was enough room so none of the cars
came close to me.

google@woodall.me.uk

On Jun 13, 12:23 pm, Daniel Barlow <d...@telent.net> wrote:
> john.sab...@gmail.com writes:
> > I use both the Old St roundabout and [...]
>
> As do I, and I'm actually struggling to think how it could be
> considered dangerous anyway. There are traffic lights on every arm.
>
I use it every day, and don't find it that difficult to deal with but
the problems are:

Need to be in the correct lane at entry. When approaching from the N
(City road), cyclists taxis and buses are in the inside lane while
other vehicles are in the outside lane. There is a "give no quarter"
attitude to allowing people to get where they need to be. Cyclists can
have an advantage here when the lights are red because they can get to
the front and into the correct lane but a disadvantage when the lights
are green because vehicles will just change lane regardless of the
fact that there is already a cyclist where they are going.

The exits are (all?) two lanes wide. I think the roundabout
effectively has one lane exit that then splits into two lanes but
people exit from the RH lane of the roundabout anyway. This means that
cyclists have to be prepared to join the traffic and not cycle around
the edge.

The roundabout is small enough that when you're at the speed of the
cars on it (when it's moving) you risk a pedal strike if you pedal all
the way around it. While this probably doesn't affect the majority of
cyclists anyway, those of use who use a quick burst of speed to 25mph+
as another line of defense lose this option.

Some of the exits (i'm thinking of City Road going S) have two lanes
funneling down into one with a fairly tight bend and railings along
the curb. When doing 20mph+ you need a good bit of room in order to be
able to lean the bike around that corner but there's often some muppet
desperate to overtake and join the queue a few feet further along.

Same exit collects some lovely puddles that you really don't want to
be going through at 20mph. Those same overtaking motorists don't see
it that way.

Personally, I don't think this roundabout is a death trap, but I do
think it's one of the more difficult roundabouts that can be easily
managed by cyclists with the right skills.

I rarely see lorries on this roundabout but they could be more
difficult to deal with if they start random lane changing. Typically
when a car suddenly changes lanes it's short enough that you can
usually get infront or behind it before it hits you but a lorry could
be more difficult.



In my last job I cycled N across this roundabout every morning:
http://maps.google.co.uk/?ie=UTF8&l...6,0.006405&z=17

Now that one was impossible to properly control. The problem was that
it was an uphill start across a wide entrance to a dual carriageway
with cars crossing the roundabout from the East at 70mph+. And cars do
not understand "you must give way to vehicles on the roundabout." I've
been hooted by cars that couldn't even be seen on their approach road
when I entered the roundabout because I missed when trying to clip in
my foot as I pulled away.

So difficult was this roundabout that I experimented with turning
left, along the dual carriageway to the next roundabout and then do a
Uturn and the back to this roundabout for another left. But although
the speeds were lower at the next roundabout, the U turn confused too
many people and didn't make it any easier.

Tim.

spindrift

Old Street incident:

hi guys. it was me. i was riding from east to west, hoxton way
straight over the roundabout. was in correct lane when said container
truck behind me chaneged lanes to go down moorgae way. hit me
frombehind, bike went upon to his grill as my legs wentunder
hiscab,followed by my bjke after it fell off his grill.

legs okay, ish. miracuklously no broken bones apart from big toe.
wheels went over legs between ancles and knees, othereise culd have
been a differnt story. had first op of plstics last night, got a few
more to go.

thsnk you so much for the thread, andto everyone that knows me both on
here and in real life im doing well. shoukd be out in a coule of weeks
maybe. sorry forthe crap typing - doing it from the hospital bedand
their little keyb oard thngs are shiut!!!!

http://www.londonfgss.com/thread6769.html

Tom Anderson

On Mon, 16 Jun 2008, spindrift wrote:

> Old Street incident:
>
> hi guys. it was me.

Yikes!

> i was riding from east to west, hoxton way straight over the roundabout.
> was in correct lane when said container truck behind me chaneged lanes
> to go down moorgae way. hit me frombehind, bike went upon to his grill
> as my legs wentunder hiscab,followed by my bjke after it fell off his
> grill.
>
> legs okay, ish. miracuklously no broken bones apart from big toe. wheels
> went over legs between ancles and knees, othereise culd have been a
> differnt story.

Your legs were run over by a juggernaut and didn't break? What the hell
are they made of, titanium?

> had first op of plstics last night, got a few more to go.
>
> thsnk you so much for the thread, andto everyone that knows me both on
> here and in real life im doing well. shoukd be out in a coule of weeks
> maybe.

Good to hear. Get well soon and all that!

tom

--
Is that dark pixel a prox mine or a bullet hole? HERE COME THE PROX MINE
SWEATS! -- D

spindrift

On Jun 16, 11:49*am, Tom Anderson <t...@urchin.earth.li> wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Jun 2008, spindrift wrote:
> > Old Street incident:
>
> > hi guys. it was me.
>
> Yikes!
>
> > i was riding from east to west, hoxton way straight over the roundabout.
> > was in correct lane when said container truck behind me chaneged lanes
> > to go down moorgae way. hit me frombehind, bike went upon to his grill
> > as my legs wentunder hiscab,followed by my bjke after it fell off his
> > grill.
>
> > legs okay, ish. miracuklously no broken bones apart from big toe. wheels
> > went over legs between ancles and knees, othereise culd have been a
> > differnt story.
>
> Your legs were run over by a juggernaut and didn't break? What the hell
> are they made of, titanium?
>
> > had first op of plstics last night, got a few more to go.
>
> > thsnk you so much for the thread, andto everyone that knows me both on
> > here and in real life im doing well. shoukd be out in a coule of weeks
> > maybe.
>
> Good to hear. Get well soon and all that!
>
> tom
>
> --
> Is that dark pixel a prox mine or a bullet hole? HERE COME THE PROX MINE
> SWEATS! -- D

It wasn't me, it was the guy in that link. Good news.

David Hansen

On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 00:58:01 -0700 (PDT) someone who may be
spindrift <newtyres@hotmail.com> wrote this:-

>legs okay, ish. miracuklously no broken bones apart from big toe.
>wheels went over legs between ancles and knees, othereise culd have
>been a differnt story.

I hope you will be physically repaired/healed as rapidly as
possible. The NHS are fairly good at that sort of thing.




--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54