too polite automobile drivers.

bob syr

Hi Group - it's been a long time.

Been riding bicycle about a year, less the winter. It's getting good;
I'm getting better going up upgrades and riding in high gear more
(more strength in legs). I plan on putting a couple of pannier
baskets on the back and use the bike for grocery shopping. The store
is about a mile away and the route has a few hills I can't quite make
yet, but I will, I hope, before the month is out.

Anyway, I've been having this problem with automobile drivers.

Sometimes drivers think it's fun to blow their horn or make other
noise when they pass. And there are others who "flip you the bird"
for some reason I'm not generally aware of. Well, fortunately these
drivers are in the minority. Annoying as these drivers may be, they
are NOT the ones I'm having a problem with.

Some . . in fact many . . auto drivers are overly polite, especially
at 4-way stop signs. I should mention I'm an older guy, lower '60s,
so maybe that's why they're doubly polite, and I'm grateful. I still
sometimes have a problem starting to pedal from a full stop, so I like
the intersection to be empty of traffic while I take off to cross on
the bike. I'm happy to wait.

Today this guy waved me to cross in front of him while other cars were
stopped at the stop sign. Well, I did everything I could to indicate
I wanted HIM to go first. I took my hands of the handle bar and
folded my arms. That didn't work. I then started to fiddle with my
gloves hoping he would go, but he didn't. I then DISMOUNTED and stood
next to the bike. It became a kind of a grudge match. He insisted I
cross in front of him so finally I let him win and walked my bike in
front of his car and across the intersection.

He had kids in the car with him, so maybe he was showing the kids how
to be courteous to your elders and bike riders. Or maybe, as a car
driver, he figured HE ought to be in charge of the roadways and direct
all of us guest bicyclists as to how to proceed.

This is becoming a real problem; I suppose I should be thankful that
these folks and making an effort to be polite, but I am starting to
dread approaching intersections with all-way stop signs. Is there
some way we can advertise to auto drivers that their politeness is
welcome, but let's not be ridiculous with it?

Bob Syr

Tom Keats

In article <17778e26-1f84-4d80-a180-2dbdeadd3dab@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
bob syr <rcranger@syr.edu> writes:
>
> Today this guy waved me to cross in front of him while other cars were
> stopped at the stop sign. Well, I did everything I could to indicate
> I wanted HIM to go first. I took my hands of the handle bar and
> folded my arms. That didn't work. I then started to fiddle with my
> gloves hoping he would go, but he didn't. I then DISMOUNTED and stood
> next to the bike. It became a kind of a grudge match. He insisted I
> cross in front of him so finally I let him win and walked my bike in
> front of his car and across the intersection.
>
> He had kids in the car with him, so maybe he was showing the kids how
> to be courteous to your elders and bike riders. Or maybe, as a car
> driver, he figured HE ought to be in charge of the roadways and direct
> all of us guest bicyclists as to how to proceed.
>
> This is becoming a real problem; I suppose I should be thankful that
> these folks and making an effort to be polite, but I am starting to
> dread approaching intersections with all-way stop signs. Is there
> some way we can advertise to auto drivers that their politeness is
> welcome, but let's not be ridiculous with it?

When that happens to me, I just point to the stop sign
I'm obeying. If that doesn't work, I just yell: "C'mon,
moooove!" in such an imperative manner that they should
get the idea. And if that doesn't work, then I resort to
the histronics you describe, just to make 'em look like the
idiots they are, to the rest of the traffic. When it comes
down to that, just make a gesture of doffing whatever kind
of hat you may be wearing and sweeping it underhand in their
direction of travel, while muttering "Thank you very f'ing much"
under your breath and giving them a forced smile, and wishing
an edifying experience upon them.

When the incident is over, get back on your bike and merrily
resume riding.

Y'see, when certain drivers do that, they're trying to demonstrate
to all the other drivers around them about how cyclists are
"in the way." Heck, when they sight you from miles back,
they'll break the speed limit just to sidle up to you, and
then suddenly pretend you're in their way.

Whudda buncha stunned goofs upon whom the abbatoire treatment
would have little if any effect. Sometimes we've gotta deal
with some people as if they didn't have any brains, 'cuz in fact
they ain't got none.

That's the way she goes.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

Dennis P. Harris

On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 20:57:40 -0700 (PDT) in rec.bicycles.misc, bob
syr <rcranger@syr.edu> wrote:

> I still
> sometimes have a problem starting to pedal from a full stop, so I like
> the intersection to be empty of traffic while I take off to cross on
> the bike.

start in a lower gear! you should be spinning at 80-90 rpm,
regardless of your actual speed. for hills, gear down and spin
up. learn to use your gears to keep a constant cadence. having
a speedometer that has a cadence sensor can help you do this.

the reason is that you can have tremendous endurance using the
long twitch muscles that you use when pedaling at a relatively
high rpm. 85 to 90 rpm is optimal, and it also helps save your
knees and knee tendons from injury.

Dennis P. Harris

On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 20:57:40 -0700 (PDT) in rec.bicycles.misc, bob
syr <rcranger@syr.edu> wrote:

> He had kids in the car with him, so maybe he was showing the kids how
> to be courteous to your elders and bike riders. Or maybe, as a car
> driver, he figured HE ought to be in charge of the roadways and direct
> all of us guest bicyclists as to how to proceed.

or maybe you actually had the right of way, and were failing to
follow the traffic laws in exercising that right.

the rule at 4 ways is that you yield to traffic on your right. if
he was to your left, he was following the law and long
established rules of the road, and you were being an obnoxious
fool for flouting them.

you should stop being a fraidy cat, and follow the proper rules
of the road like any other vehicle, as the law requires.

catzz66

bob syr wrote:
> ...
>
> This is becoming a real problem; I suppose I should be thankful that
> these folks and making an effort to be polite, but I am starting to
> dread approaching intersections with all-way stop signs. Is there
> some way we can advertise to auto drivers that their politeness is
> welcome, but let's not be ridiculous with it?
>
> Bob Syr

When I first started riding, I was more rigid and would insist that
motorists with the right of way drive on, but now I accept their
generosity. Learn how to smile and give a friendly wave as you move on
and it can become your default response. It doesn't make sense to me to
do anything else. If someone is nice enough to wave me on, I
acknowledge them with a smile and wave and then go.

Jorg Lueke

On Jun 7, 2:18 am, NO_SPAM_TO_dphar...@gci.net (Dennis P. Harris)
wrote:
>
> the rule at 4 ways is that you yield to traffic on your right.

Only if the vehicles arrive at the same time, otherwise it's first
come first serve.

Jorg Lueke

On Jun 6, 10:57 pm, bob syr <rcran...@syr.edu> wrote:
>
> Some . . in fact many . . auto drivers are overly polite, especially
> at 4-way stop signs. I should mention I'm an older guy, lower '60s,
> so maybe that's why they're doubly polite, and I'm grateful. I still
> sometimes have a problem starting to pedal from a full stop, so I like
> the intersection to be empty of traffic while I take off to cross on
> the bike. I'm happy to wait.
>
I wouldn't say many, I think more are overly polite than are total
jerks though. When someone waves me through an intersection I just
go.

Pat

>
> or maybe you actually had the right of way, and were failing to
> follow the traffic laws in exercising that right.
>
> the rule at 4 ways is that you yield to traffic on your right. if
> he was to your left, he was following the law and long
> established rules of the road, and you were being an obnoxious
> fool for flouting them.
>
> you should stop being a fraidy cat, and follow the proper rules
> of the road like any other vehicle, as the law requires.

Hey! The OP is in his 60's, so the overwhelming chances are that he KNOWS
the traffic rules! You are displaying an awful lot of obnoxiousness
yourself.

Pat in TX


>

Luke

In article <6av5otF381bd2U1@mid.individual.net>, catzz66
<catzz66@threeletterservice.com> wrote:

> bob syr wrote:
> > ...
> >
> > This is becoming a real problem; I suppose I should be thankful that
> > these folks and making an effort to be polite, but I am starting to
> > dread approaching intersections with all-way stop signs. Is there
> > some way we can advertise to auto drivers that their politeness is
> > welcome, but let's not be ridiculous with it?
> >
> > Bob Syr
>
> When I first started riding, I was more rigid and would insist that
> motorists with the right of way drive on, but now I accept their
> generosity. Learn how to smile and give a friendly wave as you move on
> and it can become your default response. It doesn't make sense to me to
> do anything else. If someone is nice enough to wave me on, I
> acknowledge them with a smile and wave and then go.

I agree.

To the OP: Habituate yourself to timing your arrival at 4 way stops in
order to let queued cars the opportunity to proceed prior to reaching
the intersection, then rolling on through when the way is clear. That's
definitely preferable to stopping and starting.

And in the cases when you, the cyclist, and a car reach the
intersection simultaneously I recommend you take the initiative. Be
assertive: slow down but don't stop; make eye contact; signal with your
hands your direction (left, right, or straight through) then, if your
intent is acknowledged and the way is clear, roll on through.

No it's not a complete stop but I find the operation, done correctly,
speeds everyone's passage through a 4 way stop, and is rarely begrudged
by motorists. What drivers often resent, rightly or not, is cyclists
conveying ambiguity or unnecessarily delaying them.

Bill Sornson

Pat wrote:
>> or maybe you actually had the right of way, and were failing to
>> follow the traffic laws in exercising that right.
>>
>> the rule at 4 ways is that you yield to traffic on your right. if
>> he was to your left, he was following the law and long
>> established rules of the road, and you were being an obnoxious
>> fool for flouting them.
>>
>> you should stop being a fraidy cat, and follow the proper rules
>> of the road like any other vehicle, as the law requires.
>
> Hey! The OP is in his 60's, so the overwhelming chances are that he
> KNOWS the traffic rules! You are displaying an awful lot of
> obnoxiousness yourself.

One might even call Dennis (attribution!) an "obnoxious fool". LOL

Bill Sornson

catzz66 wrote:
> bob syr wrote:
>> ...
>>
>> This is becoming a real problem; I suppose I should be thankful that
>> these folks and making an effort to be polite, but I am starting to
>> dread approaching intersections with all-way stop signs. Is there
>> some way we can advertise to auto drivers that their politeness is
>> welcome, but let's not be ridiculous with it?
>>
>> Bob Syr
>
> When I first started riding, I was more rigid and would insist that
> motorists with the right of way drive on, but now I accept their
> generosity. Learn how to smile and give a friendly wave as you move
> on and it can become your default response. It doesn't make sense to
> me to do anything else. If someone is nice enough to wave me on, I
> acknowledge them with a smile and wave and then go.

Not always a safe thing to do, however. Trouble is that not all drivers
think alike, so one waving you thru might conflict with the next one (or one
coming from a different direction). Best bet is to /generally/ follow
standard traffic rules.

Pat

> And in the cases when you, the cyclist, and a car reach the
> intersection simultaneously I recommend you take the initiative. Be
> assertive: slow down but don't stop; make eye contact; signal with your
> hands your direction (left, right, or straight through) then, if your
> intent is acknowledged and the way is clear, roll on through.
>
> No it's not a complete stop but I find the operation, done correctly,
> speeds everyone's passage through a 4 way stop, and is rarely begrudged
> by motorists. What drivers often resent, rightly or not, is cyclists
> conveying ambiguity or unnecessarily delaying them.

What I think drivers resent is unpredictability. All traffic conventions
such as signalling and yielding are based on predictable behaviors. My
brother used to say, "Why should I use signals--I know where I'm going!"
But, signals are so other people can predict your behavior, not guess at
what will happen. And when a driver is unsure, he is likely to become
resentful because he (rightly) thinks your behavior might put him at risk.

Pat in TX

Leo Lichtman

"After you, Alphonse." "No, after YOU" The dynamic I see here is each
trying to be nice, and BOTH end up losing. And if one eventually decides to
give in and go, there is a danger that the other do so also, at the same
time. The driver of the car is well aware that this could be fatal to the
cyclist, so is loathe to break the tie. The cyclist is well aware that this
could be fatal to him, so he is also loathe to do so.

The best way to avoid this is at the very beginning. If someone waves you
on, the politest, safest and most efficient choice is to accept the
courtesy. (Unless, of course, there are other cars contributing to the
hazard, in which case, just point and smile.)

Tom Keats

In article <070620081009185617%lucasiragusa@rogers.com>,
Luke <lucasiragusa@rogers.com> writes:
> In article <6av5otF381bd2U1@mid.individual.net>, catzz66
> <catzz66@threeletterservice.com> wrote:
>
>> bob syr wrote:
>> > ...
>> >
>> > This is becoming a real problem; I suppose I should be thankful that
>> > these folks and making an effort to be polite, but I am starting to
>> > dread approaching intersections with all-way stop signs. Is there
>> > some way we can advertise to auto drivers that their politeness is
>> > welcome, but let's not be ridiculous with it?
>> >
>> > Bob Syr
>>
>> When I first started riding, I was more rigid and would insist that
>> motorists with the right of way drive on, but now I accept their
>> generosity. Learn how to smile and give a friendly wave as you move on
>> and it can become your default response. It doesn't make sense to me to
>> do anything else. If someone is nice enough to wave me on, I
>> acknowledge them with a smile and wave and then go.
>
> I agree.
>
> To the OP: Habituate yourself to timing your arrival at 4 way stops in
> order to let queued cars the opportunity to proceed prior to reaching
> the intersection, then rolling on through when the way is clear. That's
> definitely preferable to stopping and starting.
>
> And in the cases when you, the cyclist, and a car reach the
> intersection simultaneously I recommend you take the initiative. Be
> assertive: slow down but don't stop; make eye contact; signal with your
> hands your direction (left, right, or straight through) then, if your
> intent is acknowledged and the way is clear, roll on through.
>
> No it's not a complete stop but I find the operation, done correctly,
> speeds everyone's passage through a 4 way stop, and is rarely begrudged
> by motorists. What drivers often resent, rightly or not, is cyclists
> conveying ambiguity or unnecessarily delaying them.

No rider who follows ROW convention when there are other
street/road users around should ever have to feel guilty.

Holy mackerel! Just get in line and do the 4-way stop
thing, like everybody else.

It's just that easy.

If somebody deigns to fsck-up traffic flow by either
improperly yielding or stealing ROW, that's their prob,
as they demonstrate their lack of social skills to the
world. But we're civilized, sociable, and above all
that nonsense, aren't we?


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca