Bikes for the Big and Tall

jim beam

Gary Jackson wrote:
> On Jun 6, 3:07 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
>> <snip detailed discussion>
>>
>> Congratulations on wanting to take up bicycling. It's a great way to
>> get around.
>
> It's looking like it might be a great intellectual hobby as well.

eh?


> Getting a bike together within my budget will require at least some
> tinkering. Fortunately, the University where I work has an open bike
> shop with tools and instructors who will teach walk-in people how to
> work on their bicycles.
>
>> It really shouldn't be that hard to find a bike that would work for you.
>> At your height, a 62 cm road type frame would work well in terms of
>> sizing (e.g., the largest Mazama). The frame part is actually pretty
>> easy, IMHO. The main issues to address would be adequate wheel strength
>> (I'd go with 48 spoke wheels- wheels for a tandem ought to fill the bill
>> just fine) and adequate brakes. Chalo is, out of necessity, way more up
>> on the latter than I am. You'd want wider tires than most road bikes,
>> too.
>
> I wonder out loud if 40 or 48 spokes is enough to make up for the
> necessary wheel asymmetry for disc brakes, for my purpose.

for front hubs, it's a minor difference, maybe 10%. for rears, it's zero.


>
>> In terms of frames, basically what you're looking for is a tandem built
>> for one. Bob Brown Cycles in St. Paul MN has experience in building
>> frames for big/tall people.
>>
>> http://www.bobbrowncycles.com/
>
> <snipped bit about Scott Cutshall>
>
> Good point. I'd read the Star-Tribune article, but somehow Bob Brown
> didn't make it in to my notes.
>
> --
> Gary

Gary Jackson

On Jun 6, 5:30 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:

> Understand from the start that propelling a bicycle is
> work. Many people who start out on a bicycle do not take
> into account that they are not physically adapted to ride
> a bicycle, and become discouraged when they are blindsided
> by this aspect. Adapting can take a bit of time: a year
> or more. You will adapt and you will be adapting the
> bicycle to suit yourself. Biking is fun, and cheap fun too.

I get that. I started geocaching about a year ago. Every time I
climbed a hill I thought I was going to pass out and die. I walk much
more regularly now, and hills are much easier. I know it's not the
same with a bicycle: I'll be using different muscles in different
ways, and I'm going to pay for it to begin with.

> In addition to physical challenges one must learn to
> control the bicycle while maintaining attention for what
> is going on around you; looking at the roadway so as to
> avoid debris and obstacles; and plotting your course.

This concerns me quite a bit. I'd rather not inconvenience an SUV
driver by getting my blood all up in their wheel wells. I found out
today that I can rent a mountain bike from the University for $15/day,
which will give me a chance to get used to bicycles again in a large
and relatively safe place that I know very well.

> You should add to your list of candidates the cargo bicycle
> with long wheel bases and built to carry a rider and cargo
> of more than average mass.
>
> <http://www.cargocycling.org/2007/06/bakfiets-two-wh.html>
> <http://relocalize.net/yuba_mundo_cargo_bicycle_is_here>
> <http://www.davidwilsonindustries.com/gallery/cargo/borracho/index.html>

Those are pretty cool, but I think they may present handling problems
to uncoordinated, inexperienced riders. The article about bakfiets
states that the two-wheel cargo bikes are hard to handle at low speed,
and that cargo trikes present a tip danger at higher speeds.

Speaking of bakfiets and other types of fiets, I went looking to see
if the famous solid-built, upright-posture Dutch bikes can be had in
the United States. The answer is yes, but only in a few places. One
dealer on the west coast carries the Dutch brand Azor and the Danish
brand Velorbis:

http://www.dutchbikeseattle.com/html/bikes/index.html

I sent these guys mail while composing this post. They got back to me
right away. They suggested that the 65cm or 70cm Transport, or the
65cm Kruisframe would be most appropriate. Unfortunately, those bikes
are far enough out of my budget to make stretching impossible. That's
too bad.

Dutch bicycle distributor for the United States:

http://www.dutchbikes.us

> And there is the Xtracycle kit.

I worry about those for heavy riders. The rear wheel is moved back to
make room for the super sized cargo area, so more strain is put on the
middle of the bike frame.

--
Gary

Andre Jute

On Jun 7, 5:21*am, Gary Jackson <bar...@gmail.com> wrote:

> if the famous solid-built, upright-posture Dutch bikes can be had in
> the United States. *The answer is yes, but only in a few places. *One
> dealer on the west coast carries the Dutch brand Azor and the Danish
> brand Velorbis:
>
> http://www.dutchbikeseattle.com/html/bikes/index.html

> Dutch bicycle distributor for the United States:
>
> http://www.dutchbikes.us

When I wanted a Dutch city bike, I called every single dealer in both
countries on my island, and only one was willing to order me a Giant
-- at a premium over the Continental price that popped my eyes.

Instead, I imported a Dutch Gazelle from a German dealer and for the
same money the local dealer wanted for a low-level Giant got an elite
limited edition Gazelle, and a few years later I imported an even more
upmarket Trek "Smover" (automatic gearbox, electronically controlled
active suspension, hub dynamo, stunning wheels specially designed by
Ketih Bontrager) from a Belgian dealer. In both cases I got a good
deal on the carriage, which would otherwise have killed the attraction
of these bikes for me. You can read about my Dutch city bikes at
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/...%20CYCLING.html --
Gazelle makes really big bikes for really big Dutchmen, bigger even
than mine. A Gazelle is like a Rolls-Royce of bikes; they have to make
good bikes because the Dutch are just about the rudest people in the
world when things do not go right, and they have a very firm grasp on
concepts like consumer rights. The thing is to go shopping on the net
until you find someone who has an "overjarige" (Dutch for last year's
model) bike that's being discounted, and who's willing to ship the
bike to you. I've done this twice, as I say, and come out happy both
times. German Ebay at ebay.de is a good place to start -- just search
for Gazelle or Hollandrad. Bikers Store in The Netherlands for a while
offered a package of a Gazelle utility bike and carriage to the US at
what seemed attractive prices; I don't know if they still do; I didn't
order a bike from them but I've bought parts and clothing from them by
mailorder and found them efficient.

Good luck in your search for a bike that fits.

Andre Jute
A little inaccuracy sometimes saves tons of explanation. --H.H.Munro
("Saki")(1870-1916)

Visit Jute on Amps at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information
for the tube audio constructor"
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containing vital gems of wisdom"
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(PeteCresswell)

Per Jasper Janssen:
>You might have at least skimmed it, even if you were too lazy to read,
>which would have prevented you from inserting your foot quite that deep in
>your mouth.
>
>Jasper

That one flew right over my head. Anybody care to explain?
--
PeteCresswell

Dan Becker

In article <4h7m44hc1icol4f0tqvs23jqc1e32863ld@4ax.com>, PeteCresswell
<x@y.Invalid> wrote:

> Per Jasper Janssen:
> >You might have at least skimmed it, even if you were too lazy to read,
> >which would have prevented you from inserting your foot quite that deep in
> >your mouth.
> >
> >Jasper
>
> That one flew right over my head. Anybody care to explain?

If I recall, you recommended that the OP do a google search for Chalo's
posts, when the OP's post indicated that he had already done so, and in
fact cited a specific post.

I think.

Dan

Tim McNamara

In article <070620082010005706%NoUCE@address.invalid>,
Dan Becker <NoUCE@address.invalid> wrote:

> In article <4h7m44hc1icol4f0tqvs23jqc1e32863ld@4ax.com>,
> PeteCresswell <x@y.Invalid> wrote:
>
> > Per Jasper Janssen:
> > >You might have at least skimmed it, even if you were too lazy to
> > >read, which would have prevented you from inserting your foot
> > >quite that deep in your mouth.
> > >
> > >Jasper
> >
> > That one flew right over my head. Anybody care to explain?
>
> If I recall, you recommended that the OP do a google search for
> Chalo's posts, when the OP's post indicated that he had already done
> so, and in fact cited a specific post.
>
> I think.

I think that was jim beam making that recommendation, not Pete. IIRC,
now I'm the one who's too lazy to check back through the thread for
Jasper's post.

Michael Press

In article
<e2b7798d-5f69-4a53-9bf4-167c8245e832@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
Gary Jackson <bargle@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Jun 6, 5:30 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > In addition to physical challenges one must learn to
> > control the bicycle while maintaining attention for what
> > is going on around you; looking at the roadway so as to
> > avoid debris and obstacles; and plotting your course.
>
> This concerns me quite a bit. I'd rather not inconvenience an SUV
> driver by getting my blood all up in their wheel wells. I found out
> today that I can rent a mountain bike from the University for $15/day,
> which will give me a chance to get used to bicycles again in a large
> and relatively safe place that I know very well.

Practice. Do you live on a relatively quiet street?
Practice turning.
-- riding a straight line.
-- stopping and putting down a foot at traffic stops.
-- riding a straight line starting from a dead stop.
If you notice a bicycle handling difficulty while riding
around, practice the skill in isolation.

In traffic stay out of the door lane, and ride a straight
line. Drivers feel assured when the bicycle goes straight.
They are less worried that the cyclist will do something
abrupt. Signal your intentions to drivers. In open
situations look at the driver or where his face is if it
is obscured. The driver will notice you are looking. By
open situation I mean where not everyone knows what the
others want to do, or who is to go first, etc. Most drivers
are people of good will. Smile sometimes.

Oh. And obey traffic laws. Waiting your turn is no hardship.

--
Michael Press

Michael Press

In article <4h7m44hc1icol4f0tqvs23jqc1e32863ld@4ax.com>,
"(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid> wrote:

> Per Jasper Janssen:
> >You might have at least skimmed it, even if you were too lazy to read,
> >which would have prevented you from inserting your foot quite that deep in
> >your mouth.
>
> That one flew right over my head. Anybody care to explain?

Our story so far ...
Gary Jackson initiated the thread saying that he plans to take
up bicycling for commuting and recreation. He gave height and
weight as 6'4", 400 pound, and that he had read some of what
Chalo had written about bicycles for people of his stature.
jim beam immediately responded by saying the Gary Jackson should
read what Chalo had written. Jasper Janssen gently brought to
jim beam's attention what Gary Jackson had read.

--
Michael Press

jim beam

(PeteCresswell) wrote:
> Per Jasper Janssen:
>> You might have at least skimmed it, even if you were too lazy to read,
>> which would have prevented you from inserting your foot quite that deep in
>> your mouth.
>>
>> Jasper
>
> That one flew right over my head. Anybody care to explain?


"tldr" = acronym.

seemingly, some are too lazy to look it up.

Gary Jackson

I've sent mail and heard back from a few more bicycle manufacturers.
This is a summary:

Cactus10:

They told me that the BiGBOY would not hold a 180-200kg rider, but
that they were willing to work with me on a custom bike.

Utopia Velo:

There is no distributor in the United States. They say if an American
has a London model, then they probably picked it up while in Germany.
I guess I wasn't too far off the mark with the quip about Oktoberfest.

Dutch Bikes Seattle:

They forwarded my message to the manufacturer, who also indicated that
the Kruisframe and Transport models are my best options. They also
told me that they would be coming out with a Kruisframe model with the
front rack from the Transport as well, which seems pretty cool.

Co-Motion:

They told me that building a taller bike comes at no extra cost. So,
you'd get a custom sized frame for about the same as the Utopia Velo
London or the Schauff Sumo.

I'm still waiting to hear back from the following manufacturers:

Worksman -- I asked about maximum rider weight for their bikes.
Lightfoot Cycles -- I asked about whether they could build a version
of the Custom Ranger XL that supports ~400lbs.
Surly -- I asked about the Long Haul Trucker. The fact that they
haven't gotten back to me disappoints me the most, since their bike is
very reasonably priced.
Rivendell -- I asked about a model with a double top tube. This seems
sort of silly, though, now that I know the history of the Co-Motion
Mazama.
Schauff -- I asked about getting the Sumo in the United States.

--
Gary

Chalo

I regret that I haven't been able to participate in this discussion
before now, because I have been, well, doing other things.

Gary Jackson wrote:
>
> I've sent mail and heard back from a few more bicycle manufacturers.
> This is a summary:
>
> Cactus10:
>
> They told me that the BiGBOY would not hold a 180-200kg rider, but
> that they were willing to work with me on a custom bike.

That's a manufacturer I was previously unacquainted with. Thanks for
the tip.

> Surly -- I asked about the Long Haul Trucker. The fact that they
> haven't gotten back to me disappoints me the most, since their bike is
> very reasonably priced.

I have ridden lighter-duty frames than the Long Haul Trucker without
any noteworthy problems. The stock wheels on the LHT aren't going to
cut it, and I would not use the specified crank-- but as for the
frameset, you have little to worry about. Front braking might have to
be limited to less-than-extravagant power so that the fork doesn't get
bent by the load.

For my single-speed bikes, I use two old 68cm lugged steel frames with
small diameter tubes, one straight-gauge and one butted. Neither one
seems remotely up to the task of accommodating vigorous riding under a
350-pounder, but they've both done just fine. One of them served as a
platform for my first electric-assist bike, and in that role it
carried a gross weight of about 500 pounds at respectable speeds over
some of the worst pavement in the western world (in the Port of
Seattle area). The wheels are all 48-spoke; the cranks are Primo
Powerbite freestyle cranks. I coddle the forks of these two bikes by
using a caliper brake on one and no front brake on the other.

My point in bringing this up is that if you beef up the parts that
really need it (wheels, cranks, stem, bars, seat and seatpost), the
rest of the bike will probably be OK. Stay away from lightweight or
gimmicky frames, or frames that use cantilevered structures (boom
frames, "feet forward" frames, ladies' frames, elevated chainstay
frames, etc.), and you should be able to work with whatever you
find.

> Rivendell -- I asked about a model with a double top tube. This seems
> sort of silly, though, now that I know the history of the Co-Motion
> Mazama.

That's an idea worth considering-- reinforcement is reinforcement,
after all-- but a regular diamond frame can clearly cut the mustard if
it is simple and substantial. Rivendell is hesitant to use larger
tubing diameters for stylistic reasons, and that works against us big
guys. An extra frame tube in there wouldn't hurt a bit.

I'm sure you are already aware that a custom Rivendell frame costs
serious money.

To address some other issues you brought up:

In my experience, using 48 spokes allows me to have trouble-free
dished wheels (front disc or derailleur rear) where their 36-spoke
counterparts wouldn't hold up. Using high spoke count wheels is no
longer as neat and tidy a decision as it used to be, though. The most
robust of today's 26" and 700c rims just don't come in 40 or 48 hole
versions. If I had to choose between running 48 spokes on an 8/9-
speed tandem rear cassette hub laced to a 700c Sun CR18, Alex DM18,
Velocity Dyad, etc. or running 36 spokes on a dishless 7/8/14-speed
gearhub with a Kris Holm mountain unicycle rim, I'd go for the
dishless wheel with the badass rim every time.

http://www.unicycle.com/shopping/shopexd.asp?id=805

Especially in 26" MTB-sized wheels, it's difficult to find 48-hole
rims anymore that can compare to the most rugged rims available in 32
and 36 hole versions. It might be worth consulting with these folks
and seeing what they recommend:

http://www.mtbtandems.com/

As for cargo bikes, they are not as troublesome as you suggest.
Bakfietsen are a bit strange due to their linkage steering and lightly-
weighted front wheels. With a front-loader, essentially all rider
weight is borne by the rear wheel. That's not ideal, but it can be
taken into account.

Longtails ride very nicely, are not tippy unless you carry a top-heavy
or imbalanced load, and have the distinct advantage of distributing
the rider's weight evenly between the two wheels. I would happily use
a one-piece longtail frame like the Yuba Mundo, Kona Ute, or Surly Big
Dummy. I would not ride an Xtracycle-equipped frame due to the
dropout/subframe separation issues I have seen on some of them when
they are heavily loaded.

The Yuba Mundo and Kona Ute would definitely require custom seatposts
due to their one-size geometry. The Big Dummy comes in sizes up to
22". I'd use a Thomson seatpost with that one.

The Nashbar 853 frame you mentioned is lightweight and not suitable
for riders as big as we are.

Getting a garage-sale MTB, especially one with a rigid fork, would be
an easy way to get in the game for cheap. To eke a little more
longevity out of the wheels, you could take them to a local shop to
have their spoke tension raised to at least 100 kgf. It won't make
them reliable in the long term, but it will keep the spokes from going
loose immediately. Older MTBs often have sturdy components that make
them more plausible in your application than a more up-to-date bike
would be.

If your starter bike has a freewheel rear hub, you'll probably bend or
break the axle. This is usually a "ride home" type of failure, often
discovered at a later time. Among commonly available equipment, a
cassette hub is better-- but you are likely to bust up the ratchet in
the cassette body instead of the hub axle. The repair job is almost
the same in either case.

Recent experiences with cassette hubs have convinced me that no
cassette hub, not even the Gusset Jury or similar Woodman Bill
Extreme, is likely to have a cassette body that can handle the stress
of a superheavy rider with low gearing. A face ratchet like the one
in a Chris King hub might hold up better, but that hub is light enough
to give me very little confidence in it.

http://www.woodmancomponents.com/ca...ang=en&art=hub7

Depending on the terrain you have to deal with, single-speed gearing
might be a good choice for you. Single-speed freewheel hubs with
135mm MTB spacing make the strongest rear wheels around, all else
equal. SS freewheels and chains are incredibly inexpensive, and they
last a lot longer than multi-speed stuff.

Chalo

Ryan Cousineau

In article
<46d190bd-3331-48ba-863b-780de79d4354@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
Chalo <chalo.colina@gmail.com> wrote:

> I regret that I haven't been able to participate in this discussion
> before now, because I have been, well, doing other things.
>
> Gary Jackson wrote:

[Gary needs a big bike]

> Recent experiences with cassette hubs have convinced me that no
> cassette hub, not even the Gusset Jury or similar Woodman Bill
> Extreme, is likely to have a cassette body that can handle the stress
> of a superheavy rider with low gearing. A face ratchet like the one
> in a Chris King hub might hold up better, but that hub is light enough
> to give me very little confidence in it.
>
> http://www.woodmancomponents.com/ca...lang=en&art=hub
> 7
>
> Depending on the terrain you have to deal with, single-speed gearing
> might be a good choice for you. Single-speed freewheel hubs with
> 135mm MTB spacing make the strongest rear wheels around, all else
> equal. SS freewheels and chains are incredibly inexpensive, and they
> last a lot longer than multi-speed stuff.
>
> Chalo

I have no personal stake in Clydesdale bicycles, but I know you've used
several gearhubs. Aside from your Rohloff being reliable and you
breaking your SRAM once, have you tried any variant of the Shimano
Nexus-8 hubs?

Also, what was the final result with your SRAM-o that went bust-o?

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

Chalo

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>
> I have no personal stake in Clydesdale bicycles, but I know you've used
> several gearhubs. Aside from your Rohloff being reliable and you
> breaking your SRAM once, have you tried any variant of the Shimano
> Nexus-8 hubs?

Nexus 8, no. Nexus 7-- I have a couple of those to this day. I was
afraid for them, so I only ever used them as 20" wheels to mitigate
gearbox torque. So far, the only problem I've had with them myself is
stripping the axle nuts on installation. I know of other folks who
have defeated the flatted washers or even bungled the planetary gears,
but not me (yet).

> Also, what was the final result with your SRAM-o that went bust-o?

I sheared off the sliding keys. Fixing it should be a reasonable
procedure, but I haven't yet undertaken the job.

The previous problem I had with the SRAM hub was tearing out the flats
in its anti-rotation washers. I made a special washer to prevent that
from recurring.

Chalo

still just me

On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 08:31:51 -0700 (PDT), Chalo
<chalo.colina@gmail.com> wrote:


>The previous problem I had with the SRAM hub was tearing out the flats
>in its anti-rotation washers. I made a special washer to prevent that
>from recurring.

"Are you big? Are you tall? Let's face it, are you fat? When you go
jogging, do you leave potholes?"

Rodney, "Back to school", slightly paraphrased.