An Incident

Jorg Lueke

Yesterday was not a good day to be biking to work. In the mornings I
need to go through Saint Paul to cross the river over one of the
bridges. As I come in from the East this means I need to make a left
turn and since the right-hand left turn lane grows out of the left
lane of the road I have to make a switch. I have found the best tome
for this is two blocks prior to the turn because if I wait any longer
the traffic is too heavy to get across the lanes safely. So for two
blocks, about 20-30 seconds I may be slowing down some commuters. One
irritated fellow bellowed something out his window at me that sounded
like “ncdjehjfjenf ..Lance Armstrong ,.dcd//sddmklsdm”. I promptly
gave him a one finger salute although in retrospect a smile and a wave
may have been more effective.
Later I was getting ready to turn onto a trail with a van behind me.
The van was fine, but as I made a right turn onto the trail a biker
whizzing down the hill onto the street zoomed full speed in front of
the van. In this case the biker was being an ass since the traffic
clearly has the right of way and the trail has a stop sign. Usually
it's enough to slow down and pay attention, just plowing into traffic
is stupid.
All this would end up being small potatoes next to the ride home.
There is a three mile stretch from work to where I can turn onto the
trails. The shoulder is decent though the traffic does go 50, but
it's not much of an issue. At the very end of the three miles I, once
again, need to make a left turn to get onto the trail. I look, no one
is coming, I get into the lane pedal towards the light when a truck
veers out behind me with the driver cursing. Something like “Get the &
%^ out of the road”. As luck would have it he missed the light and I
rode up next to him. Again the tirade, “Why are you guys on the #$
road, I almost &&* hit you. Why don't you ride on the sidewalk?” I
then explained to him that there was no sidewalk, that even if there
were bikes belonged on the road, and that I really needed to just make
this one left turn. After exchanging some unplesantries under the
influence of an adrenaline shot he ended by muttering “You're gonna
get hit. I'm telling you you're gonna get hit.” Then the light
changed.
What is frustrating about all this is that 11 of the 19 miles I ride
each way are on trails, and 7.5 of the reminder I am on the side of
the road where I can usually be passed with relative ease. But, on
those few spots where I need to merge with traffic there are still too
many people who can't bother to wait a few seconds.

DennisTheBald

On Jun 5, 4:19 pm, Jorg Lueke <jlueke_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> ... But, on
> those few spots where I need to merge with traffic there are still too
> many people who can't bother to wait a few seconds...

Yeah, car people suck! To bad it isn't their exhaust pipes that
they're sucking on.

> ...but as I made a right turn onto the trail a biker
> whizzing down the hill onto the street zoomed full speed in front of
> the van. In this case the biker was being an ass since the traffic
> clearly has the right of way and the trail has a stop sign.

But ya know, there are some bike people that totally suck too. I'm
gonna go way out a limb here and speculate that he (it was a he wasn't
it?-) wasn't carrying his work clothes. He was probably riding a
pretty expensive road bike and wearing fancy clothes that aren't good
for anything but biking. I wouldn't doubt that he bought a large SUV
so that he can haul his bike around to different places to ride it.

D_Frumious_B@ndersnat.ch

Jorg Lueke <jlueke_2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Yesterday was not a good day to be biking to work. In the mornings I
> need to go through Saint Paul to cross the river over one of the
> bridges. As I come in from the East this means I need to make a left
> turn and since the right-hand left turn lane grows out of the left
> lane of the road I have to make a switch. I have found the best tome
> for this is two blocks prior to the turn because if I wait any longer
> the traffic is too heavy to get across the lanes safely. So for two
> blocks, about 20-30 seconds I may be slowing down some commuters. One
> irritated fellow bellowed something out his window at me that sounded
> like ?ncdjehjfjenf ..Lance Armstrong ,.dcd//sddmklsdm?. I promptly
> gave him a one finger salute although in retrospect a smile and a wave
> may have been more effective.

You may have been within your rights taking the left lane for two
blocks, but I don't think it's what I'd do. If traffic is that heavy and
the turn that dicey, I'd stay right and do a square left turn. Why piss
people off unnecessarily?
Your way might be right, but you might end up dead right.


Bill

__o | Get a bicycle. You will not regret it, if you live.
_`\(,_ |
(_)/ (_) | -- Mark Twain

catzz66

D_Frumious_B@ndersnat.ch wrote:
> Jorg Lueke <jlueke_2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Yesterday was not a good day to be biking to work. In the mornings I
>> need to go through Saint Paul to cross the river over one of the
>> bridges. As I come in from the East this means I need to make a left
>> turn and since the right-hand left turn lane grows out of the left
>> lane of the road I have to make a switch. I have found the best tome
>> for this is two blocks prior to the turn because if I wait any longer
>> the traffic is too heavy to get across the lanes safely. So for two
>> blocks, about 20-30 seconds I may be slowing down some commuters. One
>> irritated fellow bellowed something out his window at me that sounded
>> like ?ncdjehjfjenf ..Lance Armstrong ,.dcd//sddmklsdm?. I promptly
>> gave him a one finger salute although in retrospect a smile and a wave
>> may have been more effective.
>
> You may have been within your rights taking the left lane for two
> blocks, but I don't think it's what I'd do. If traffic is that heavy and
> the turn that dicey, I'd stay right and do a square left turn. Why piss
> people off unnecessarily?
> Your way might be right, but you might end up dead right.
>
>

And doing the one finger salute can lead to more than just exchanging
words. I have seen it happen a time or two out on the road where it
winds up in a physical fight.

Jorg Lueke

On Jun 6, 5:09 pm, D_Frumiou...@ndersnat.ch wrote:
> Jorg Lueke <jlueke_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Yesterday was not a good day to be biking to work. In the mornings I
> > need to go through Saint Paul to cross the river over one of the
> > bridges. As I come in from the East this means I need to make a left
> > turn and since the right-hand left turn lane grows out of the left
> > lane of the road I have to make a switch. I have found the best tome
> > for this is two blocks prior to the turn because if I wait any longer
> > the traffic is too heavy to get across the lanes safely. So for two
> > blocks, about 20-30 seconds I may be slowing down some commuters. One
> > irritated fellow bellowed something out his window at me that sounded
> > like ?ncdjehjfjenf ..Lance Armstrong ,.dcd//sddmklsdm?. I promptly
> > gave him a one finger salute although in retrospect a smile and a wave
> > may have been more effective.
>
> You may have been within your rights taking the left lane for two
> blocks, but I don't think it's what I'd do. If traffic is that heavy and
> the turn that dicey, I'd stay right and do a square left turn. Why piss
> people off unnecessarily?
> Your way might be right, but you might end up dead right.
>
> Bill
>
> __o | Get a bicycle. You will not regret it, if you live.
> _`\(,_ |
> (_)/ (_) | -- Mark Twain

You are probably right, that is the safe thing to do, and it's better
to waste a minute waiting for the light to turn twice rather then
getting rammed off the road. It does annoy me that the safe thing
involves stopping and taking the ped crossing but the riding the left
line does piss off those who can't wait and cutting across is not an
option. Maybe Saint Paul will put in those colored bike lanes, that
may help.

catzz66

Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On Jun 6, 8:37 pm, Jorg Lueke <jlueke_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On Jun 6, 5:09 pm, D_Frumiou...@ndersnat.ch wrote:
>>
>>
>>> You may have been within your rights taking the left lane for two
>>>blocks, but I don't think it's what I'd do. If traffic is that heavy and
>>>the turn that dicey, I'd stay right and do a square left turn. Why piss
>>>people off unnecessarily?
>>> Your way might be right, but you might end up dead right.
>>
>>You are probably right, that is the safe thing to do, and it's better
>>to waste a minute waiting for the light to turn twice rather then
>>getting rammed off the road. It does annoy me that the safe thing
>>involves stopping and taking the ped crossing but the riding the left
>>line does piss off those who can't wait and cutting across is not an
>>option. Maybe Saint Paul will put in those colored bike lanes, that
>>may help.
>
>
> How would colored bike lanes help? If anything, bike lanes seem to
> make left turns more difficult. At least some motorists think a
> cyclist should never leave them. And sadly, some cyclists think the
> same thing, and try to turn left from a right-side bike lane.
>
> - Frank Krygowski

We don't have bike lanes where I live, and I think I am probably a lot
better off without them. I can usually figure out a way to avoid the
most dangerous streets by riding one street or so off the main drag, but
I would expect motorists to think bikes are confined to bike lanes if we
had them. I wonder what experience shows in towns that have extensive
bike lanes.

Jorg Lueke

On Jun 6, 8:09 pm, Frank Krygowski <frkry...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 6, 8:37 pm, Jorg Lueke <jlueke_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> How would colored bike lanes help? If anything, bike lanes seem to
> make left turns more difficult. At least some motorists think a
> cyclist should never leave them. And sadly, some cyclists think the
> same thing, and try to turn left from a right-side bike lane.
>
> - Frank Krygowski

It would make people aware that bikes belong on the road and not the
sidewalk. They would naturally have to have a path for the bike lane
to get onto the bridge to cross the river. If it were just on the
right shoulder the whole time it wouldn't help much except with the
people desperately turning right to find parking.

Jorg Lueke

On Jun 7, 5:27 am, catzz66 <catz...@threeletterservice.com> wrote:
>
> We don't have bike lanes where I live, and I think I am probably a lot
> better off without them. I can usually figure out a way to avoid the
> most dangerous streets by riding one street or so off the main drag, but
> I would expect motorists to think bikes are confined to bike lanes if we
> had them. I wonder what experience shows in towns that have extensive
> bike lanes.

Rivers make alternative routes hard, it's either the bridge or
swimming with your bike on your back.

Frank Krygowski

On Jun 7, 8:38 am, Jorg Lueke <jlueke_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jun 6, 8:09 pm, Frank Krygowski <frkry...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jun 6, 8:37 pm, Jorg Lueke <jlueke_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > How would colored bike lanes help? If anything, bike lanes seem to
> > make left turns more difficult. At least some motorists think a
> > cyclist should never leave them. And sadly, some cyclists think the
> > same thing, and try to turn left from a right-side bike lane.
>
> > - Frank Krygowski
>
> It would make people aware that bikes belong on the road and not the
> sidewalk.

For such purposes, I greatly prefer "Share the Road" signs. If you
must have something on the road surface as well, perhaps "Sharrows."

See http://home.swbell.net/mpion/sharesigns.html

But more education is better. I'd favor public service announcements
on TV, radio and in newspapers explaining that cyclists have a right
to the road. And explaining that cyclists should normally make left
turns from a position toward the road center, not from the curb.

- Frank Krygowski

Bill Sornson

catzz66 wrote:

> We don't have bike lanes where I live, and I think I am probably a lot
> better off without them. I can usually figure out a way to avoid the
> most dangerous streets by riding one street or so off the main drag,
> but I would expect motorists to think bikes are confined to bike
> lanes if we had them. I wonder what experience shows in towns that
> have extensive bike lanes.

So your solution when there are no bike lanes is to find other routes, yet
you think you're better off without bike lanes.

Strange logic, that.

catzz66

Jorg Lueke wrote:
> On Jun 7, 5:27 am, catzz66 <catz...@threeletterservice.com> wrote:
>> We don't have bike lanes where I live, and I think I am probably a lot
>> better off without them. I can usually figure out a way to avoid the
>> most dangerous streets by riding one street or so off the main drag, but
>> I would expect motorists to think bikes are confined to bike lanes if we
>> had them. I wonder what experience shows in towns that have extensive
>> bike lanes.
>
> Rivers make alternative routes hard, it's either the bridge or
> swimming with your bike on your back.
>

Floaties? =] Rivers would definitely present a problem for me, too.

Frank Krygowski

On Jun 7, 11:26 am, "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me> wrote:
> catzz66 wrote:
> > We don't have bike lanes where I live, and I think I am probably a lot
> > better off without them. I can usually figure out a way to avoid the
> > most dangerous streets by riding one street or so off the main drag,
> > but I would expect motorists to think bikes are confined to bike
> > lanes if we had them. I wonder what experience shows in towns that
> > have extensive bike lanes.
>
> So your solution when there are no bike lanes is to find other routes, yet
> you think you're better off without bike lanes.
>
> Strange logic, that.

I imagine Bill is confusing cause and effect.

Bike lanes are normally put on roads that have enough room for bike
lanes. (Duh!) Those roads are often better for cycling whether or
not they have the magic stripes.

And if you have a "dangerous street" that's a main drag, how exactly
does the stripe help? Does it help, say, teach novice cyclists to
make left turns from the right side bike lane? Does it tempt novices
to pass cars on the right, so they can get right hooked? Does it run
the novices into door zones? Does it collect plenty of gravel and
broken glass?

FWIW, when I visit certain cities that abound in bike lanes, I
sometimes prefer the streets without them. I clearly recall
specifically avoiding them because of piles of glass.

- Frank Krygowski

Jorg Lueke

On Jun 7, 9:23 am, Frank Krygowski <frkry...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 7, 8:38 am, Jorg Lueke <jlueke_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jun 6, 8:09 pm, Frank Krygowski <frkry...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jun 6, 8:37 pm, Jorg Lueke <jlueke_2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > How would colored bike lanes help? If anything, bike lanes seem to
> > > make left turns more difficult. At least some motorists think a
> > > cyclist should never leave them. And sadly, some cyclists think the
> > > same thing, and try to turn left from a right-side bike lane.
>
> > > - Frank Krygowski
>
> > It would make people aware that bikes belong on the road and not the
> > sidewalk.
>
> For such purposes, I greatly prefer "Share the Road" signs. If you
> must have something on the road surface as well, perhaps "Sharrows."
>
> Seehttp://home.swbell.net/mpion/sharesigns.html
>
> But more education is better. I'd favor public service announcements
> on TV, radio and in newspapers explaining that cyclists have a right
> to the road. And explaining that cyclists should normally make left
> turns from a position toward the road center, not from the curb.
>
> - Frank Krygowski

We do have spots with signs and that has to help too. Public service
announcements would be good, I'm just now seeing a spate of
commercials about watching for motorcyclists. What would be ideal as
far as Saint Paul and the river is concerned would be to convert the
train bridge for bikes and peds. The one wouldn't even have to enter
downtown.

catzz66

> On Jun 7, 11:26 am, "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me> wrote:
>
>>catzz66 wrote:
>>
>>>We don't have bike lanes where I live, and I think I am probably a lot
>>>better off without them. I can usually figure out a way to avoid the
>>>most dangerous streets by riding one street or so off the main drag,
>>>but I would expect motorists to think bikes are confined to bike
>>>lanes if we had them. I wonder what experience shows in towns that
>>>have extensive bike lanes.
>>
>>So your solution when there are no bike lanes is to find other routes, yet
>>you think you're better off without bike lanes.
>>
>>Strange logic, that.
>
>

Logic's not so complicated. With no bike lanes, motorists are
accustomed to seeing bikes in the street as being the norm.