Face It. Contador is a phenom.

Originally Posted by EvilJediJ

I've always wondered... since Cunego has a natural Hct over 50% does he need to dope?

Testosterone and the other steroids sure..but transfusions and EPO ?

Originally Posted by EvilJediJ

I've always wondered... since Cunego has a natural Hct over 50% does he need to dope?

Testosterone and the other steroids sure..but transfusions and EPO ?

Originally Posted by smoothie104

So, how do you think riders are getting the same performance benefit from drugs now, as they were when they could raise their red blood cell count by %30?

Because the money and desire to win is always stronger than the desire to catch the cheaters, The racers are always several steps ahead.

Before Epogen came around, guys were showing Hematorcrit levels between 40 to 44, then the EPO abuse started and guys were testing as high as 56% or more (Bjarne Riis)

Then the UCI put in the 50% cut off, and miraculously every one started coming in at 49% In the Pre race medical checks prior to the TdF, the average HCT is lower, around 44, but everyone knows these tests are coming, so getting the value down temporarily is easy. But HCT tests are outdated already, with the introduction of Hemoglobin based Oxygen Carriers. Or HBOC's

These latest doping methods no longer raise the hematocrit, but work by increasing the pace at which the blood releases the oxygen into the tissues. Actovegin was one of the first attempts at this, as was Pero fluro carbon or PFC (type Mauro Gianetti and PFC into google) Mauro is now Director Sportiff at Saunier Duval by the way..

PFCs, are insoluble in water but can absorb huge quantities of gases--some products can dissolve more than 100 times more oxygen per volume than blood plasma, and are biologically inert.
The capability of PFCs as an oxygen transport medium were displayed when a study showed that a rat immersed in the solution could survive for hours--it literally breathed liquid. Becuase they are inert, they are expelled unaltered through the lungs in just a few hours..But there are no breathalyzers at the finish line...

Now they use Hemopure, Oxyglobin and Hemassist, These products actually lower the Hematocrit count, as the artifical hemoglobin augments the natural. They are also impossible to detect. It's engineered from Humans and won't show up in a blood test, and passes in the urine with no recognizable metabolites. There is currently no test for them.

HBOCs are excellent oxygen transporters; typically they have 2-4 times the oxygen transport capacity of normal human hemoglobin, but also do not have as strong a chemical bond, meaning the oxygen is released easier to muscle tissues. A 1995 study of Hemopure found greater oxygen uptake and lower lactate levels when compared to a control group using the autologous transfusions (blood re-injected in the donor) that the 1984 Olympic team used.

And while EPO must be taken two weeks or more out from competition to have an appreciable effect, an HBOC is effective within minutes of injection. The only good news is that they only last about 2 days, hence the police raids on the team cars from time to time, as you would need a steady supply for a week race, or really just a a couple of bags for the hard stages.

The really sobering part of all this, is the information above is already out, so its probably outdated. I can only imagine what the current and future methods are like. The European peleton has been doped for over 100 years, I don't think thats going to change anytime soon. Clean Pro sports is a myth.

Originally Posted by Crankyfeet

I may be out of my league here... but I don't think he needed Rass. Rass was lucky to hold on going up Plateau de Bielle. And even if they thought Rass was a GC contender earlier on... you can't IMO suddenly have a bunch of domestiques keeping up with him. However I may be wrong... cause my memory of that early stage 8 (?) victory is sketchy.

Originally Posted by Crankyfeet

Hematocrit is old school. Doping methods are way ahead of that now AFAIK. That's why Landis and Rass were around 43 throughout 2006 (for Landis) and 2007 TdF's.

I refer you to this post by smoothie104 in 2005 on bikeforums (I quoted this in another post about a month ago):

Originally Posted by Malkmus

It goes back way farther than that. I remember an article in 1998 or 1999 talking about Museuw's complications after his Roubaix crash. He blamed the doctors for bad treatment. The doctors immediatly responded by issuing a statement that said the complications were cause by Hemopure or Biopure which Museuw told them he had taken. I wissh I could find a link to any of this.

Does anybody have one?

Originally Posted by Crankyfeet

Saying someone dopes just a little bit is pathetic. If you're going to dope... be a man and get on the program. Doping a little bit is like stealing a little bit... you are just an immoral wimp instead of being an immoral man...

Originally Posted by Crankyfeet

Hematocrit is old school. Doping methods are way ahead of that now AFAIK. That's why Landis and Rass were around 43 throughout 2006 (for Landis) and 2007 TdF's.

Originally Posted by thecyclist

Yeah I wasn't to argue that MR was clean, just that boosting your hematocrit dosn't seem to be outdated.

I found the image you posted now.