ASO still refusing to admit Astana in TDF

bjw@mambo.ucolick.org

On Jun 5, 6:56*pm, Bob Schwartz <bob.schwa...@sbcREMOVE.global.net>
wrote:
> hizark21 wrote:
> > Actually Bruyneel has the option of keeping the riders he wanted.
>
> > Bob Schwartz wrote:
> >> hizark21 wrote:
> >>> Yes, but Astana has gotten rid of all the old management and most of
> >>> 07's riders. Like I said before the ASO should have told Astana that
> >>> they have to resolve certain issues if they want to enter to the
> >>> TDF.
> >> Of the 30 riders on their roster, 17 were there last year.
> >> Most of last year's riders are still there. Which is to be
> >> expected I suppose, since most if not all of the holdovers
> >> would have multi-year contracts.
>
> >> Bob Schwartz
>
> Very well. Then the team is mostly the same as last year,
> adding a few select riders such as Levi (Ferrari) Leipheimer
> and Alberto (Puerto) Contador.
>
> So why are you making the case that Astana hasn't earned this
> by pissing in the soup more than once?
>
> Aren't you the guy that wants the death penalty for first
> time dopers? ASO is taking a hard line. You should be cheering
> this.

To be clear, I don't have a problem with the Tour
excluding Astana, who have a Phonak-like smell.
But can someone explain to me the second incident of
pissing in the Tour's soup? Vino, obviously. Is
Kashechkin the second? That happened outside
and after the Tour. It's bad, but it seems an offense
against cycling as a whole and not the Tour
specifically. Or is it something to do with Puerto,
Contador, or a hangover from Liberty Seguros?

Again, I don't have a major problem with their exclusion,
although I also don't think excluding teams is ever going
to be done objectively. Some teams will get breaks
(Rabobank, Cofidis) for one reason or another. I just want
to make sure I didn't miss any soup-pissing incidents.

Ben

hizark21

Bob Schwartz wrote:
> hizark21 wrote:
> > Actually Bruyneel has the option of keeping the riders he wanted.
> >
> > Bob Schwartz wrote:
> >> hizark21 wrote:
> >>> Yes, but Astana has gotten rid of all the old management and most of
> >>> 07's riders. Like I said before the ASO should have told Astana that
> >>> they have to resolve certain issues if they want to enter to the
> >>> TDF.
> >> Of the 30 riders on their roster, 17 were there last year.
> >> Most of last year's riders are still there. Which is to be
> >> expected I suppose, since most if not all of the holdovers
> >> would have multi-year contracts.
> >>
> >> Bob Schwartz
>
> Very well. Then the team is mostly the same as last year,
> adding a few select riders such as Levi (Ferrari) Leipheimer
> and Alberto (Puerto) Contador.
>

Yes, but none of the current riders on the Astana team have tested
positive. There is a big difference between testing positive as
opposed to guilt by association. That said it would be interesting to
find out how much the Basso hurt the teams chances of being in the
tdf. As I stated earlier, hiring Basso was a mistake and hurt the
teams reputation.



> So why are you making the case that Astana hasn't earned this
> by pissing in the soup more than once?
>
> Aren't you the guy that wants the death penalty for first
> time dopers? ASO is taking a hard line. You should be cheering
> this.
>
> Bob Schwartz

Paul G.

On Jun 5, 1:15 pm, Jeff Jones <drjone...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 5, 7:12 am, Kyle Legate <lega...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > dave a wrote:
>
> > > On the other hand, I suspect that one of the top stories during the TdF
> > > will be the exclusion of Astana. That's still exposure.
>
> > Astana doesn't sell anything. Exposure is meaningless.
>
> What about for making benefit glorious nation of Kazakhstan?
>
> Jeff

KaCHIING!
-Paul

Kyle Legate

Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com wrote:
>
> This is only indirectly about being clean or not. ASO has a real
> problem with Bruyneel and Contador still has a cloud over him. I think
> it's ASO's distaste for Bruyneel primarily. If Bruyneel wasn't the
> director, I'll bet Astana would have been invited.
>
[citation required]

Donald Munro

hizark21 wrote:
> As I stated earlier, hiring Basso was a mistake and hurt the teams
> reputation.

Astana hired Basso ? Have I missed something ?

Can I hire Basso's sister ?

bjw@mambo.ucolick.org

On Jun 6, 12:55*am, Kyle Legate <lega...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.comwrote:
>
> > This is only indirectly about being clean or not. ASO has a real
> > problem with Bruyneel and Contador still has a cloud over him. I think
> > it's ASO's distaste for Bruyneel primarily. If Bruyneel wasn't the
> > director, I'll bet Astana would have been invited.
>
> [citation required]


Egad! Wikipedia humor.

P.Chisholm

On Jun 5, 10:15*pm, hizark21 <hizar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Bob Schwartz wrote:
> > hizark21 wrote:
> > > Actually Bruyneel has the option of keeping the riders he wanted.
>
> > > Bob Schwartz wrote:
> > >> hizark21 wrote:
> > >>> Yes, but Astana has gotten rid of all the old management and most of
> > >>> 07's riders. Like I said before the ASO should have told Astana that
> > >>> they have to resolve certain issues if they want to enter to the
> > >>> TDF.
> > >> Of the 30 riders on their roster, 17 were there last year.
> > >> Most of last year's riders are still there. Which is to be
> > >> expected I suppose, since most if not all of the holdovers
> > >> would have multi-year contracts.
>
> > >> Bob Schwartz
>
> > Very well. Then the team is mostly the same as last year,
> > adding a few select riders such as Levi (Ferrari) Leipheimer
> > and Alberto (Puerto) Contador.
>
> Yes, but none of the current riders on the Astana team have tested
> positive. There is a big difference between testing positive as
> opposed to guilt by association. That said it would be interesting to
> find out how much the Basso hurt the teams chances of being in the
> tdf. As I stated earlier, hiring Basso was a mistake and hurt the
> teams reputation.

Neither did Rasmussen.
>
> > So why are you making the case that Astana hasn't earned this
> > by pissing in the soup more than once?
>
> > Aren't you the guy that wants the death penalty for first
> > time dopers? ASO is taking a hard line. You should be cheering
> > this.
>
> > Bob Schwartz

Bob Schwartz

bjw@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
> To be clear, I don't have a problem with the Tour
> excluding Astana, who have a Phonak-like smell.
> But can someone explain to me the second incident of
> pissing in the Tour's soup? Vino, obviously. Is
> Kashechkin the second? That happened outside
> and after the Tour. It's bad, but it seems an offense
> against cycling as a whole and not the Tour
> specifically. Or is it something to do with Puerto,
> Contador, or a hangover from Liberty Seguros?
>
> Again, I don't have a major problem with their exclusion,
> although I also don't think excluding teams is ever going
> to be done objectively. Some teams will get breaks
> (Rabobank, Cofidis) for one reason or another. I just want
> to make sure I didn't miss any soup-pissing incidents.

Can't tell the players without a scorecard.

Vino didn't get to ride the 2006 Tour because he had
too many teammates implicated in the then-breaking
Puerto scandal. Liberty Seguros then pulled their
sponsorship because the team had previously pissed in
the Vuelta's soup with Roberto Heras. Flandis was the
second grand tour winner to lose in the lab, Roberto
was the first.

Oh yeah, Contador was on Liberty Seguros. Too young at
the time to be doing grand tours though.

At any rate, Astana took over the sponsorship, they
changed management and riders, and then they pissed in
the soup again.

They did the right thing in response. They changed
management and riders. But most importantly, they hired
some American riders. As every rbr reader knows, if you
want to be seen as taking a hard line against dope you
hire American riders because they're all clean. Shame
ASO didn't cut them any slack for that, now Chris Horner
and Levi can't ride the Tour. It's all so unfair.

Maybe they'll ride at Superweek instead. Only Fuentes
dopes there. Other than him it's as clean as the Giro.

Bob Schwartz

teaser4ever@gmail.com

Phonak changed their ways a few times.. every time the facts told
against them. When Flandy signed phonak I made a bet with my brother
he would be caught. I was right.

Last year most of us knew Astana was fishy (Puerto-Liberty Seguros).
hey got caught big time.

Now Bruyneel enters Astana, with a cloudy participant. Half the team
still seems to be there. It is sponsored by a governement, who
expressed their full support for Vino and Kascheskin.

Are people in their right minds REALLY saying Aso is in the wrong
here?????

A year suspension is mild imho.... it feels like Phonak all over
again.

John Forrest Tomlinson

On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 14:32:49 -0700 (PDT), teaser4ever@gmail.com wrote:

>When Flandy signed phonak I made a bet with my brother
>he would be caught. I was right.

What's the next team to have a major drugs scandal?

Tom Kunich

"Jeff Jones" <drjones99@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:caa7835d-c1c6-4135-9d6a-5d79f43dc44e@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 5, 7:12 am, Kyle Legate <lega...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> dave a wrote:
>>
>> > On the other hand, I suspect that one of the top stories during the TdF
>> > will be the exclusion of Astana. That's still exposure.
>>
>> Astana doesn't sell anything. Exposure is meaningless.
>
> What about for making benefit glorious nation of Kazakhstan?

Because regardless Kazakhstan is still glorious?

Tom Kunich

"Bill C" <tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:52161a0d-c3c7-4669-8423-18aadad43770@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 5, 11:57 am, hizark21 <hizar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Yes, but Astana has gotten rid of all the old management and most of
> > 07's riders. Like I said before the ASO should have told Astana that
> > they have to resolve certain issues if they want to enter to the
> >
> They have. They told them "Prove it by staying clean for a year."

Think about that statement Bill. Firstly the team has very little control
over what riders do and since riders become millionaires if they succeed
they can afford to hire the best and to take chances. The past problems were
the lower tier riders were using lower tier doctors who didn't know how to
design the doping regime to clear the testings.

Now the testing protocols are getting so sensitive that most doping won't
work. That won't stop doping of course but it can limit it which is the best
we can hope to do.

hizark21

I am not necessarily opposed to ASO's decision to decide what teams
are in their races. If ASO decides to become a private series of races
then they need to come up with a uniform standard method for allowing
teams or excluding them. ASO also needs to publish their procedures
for choosing teams as well.

Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com wrote:
> On Jun 4, 4:17�pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com> wrote:
> > > I would assume that ASO would argue that the good showing of Astana
> > > proves that they're doping. That's the type of reasoning you're seeing
> > > from the ASO management.
> > >> Well, they were on vacation a week before the start and came there and
> > >> kicked ass..'if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck'. Bruyneel and
> > >> Contador is the problem, Astana has nothing to do with it. Vino was
> > >> never a contender.
> >
> > So the only way to prove you're clean is to lose convincingly? We know 2nd
> > place isn't enough (Zabel in his past life).
>
> This is only indirectly about being clean or not. ASO has a real
> problem with Bruyneel and Contador still has a cloud over him. I think
> it's ASO's distaste for Bruyneel primarily. If Bruyneel wasn't the
> director, I'll bet Astana would have been invited.
> >
> > --Mike Jacoubowsky
> > Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
> > Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
> >
> > "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com" <pe...@vecchios.com> wrote in
> > messagenews:7f7eee78-e7a6-488a-8eea-b68ff0be3ae1@x19g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> > On Jun 4, 10:28 am, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > > On Jun 4, 7:56 am, hizark21 <hizar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > ASO still refusing to admit Astana in TDF (http://www.cyclingnews.com/
> > > > news.php?id=news/2008/jun08/jun04news ).
> >
> > > > It's simply ridiculous that the ASO is refusing to let Astana enter
> > > > the TDF. The ASO should have put forth a set of condtions for Astana
> > > > to meet if they wished to enter the TDF. Astana is the dominant spring
> > > > team now and they deserve to ride in the TDF.
> >
> > > I would assume that ASO would argue that the good showing of Astana
> > > proves that they're doping. That's the type of reasoning you're seeing
> > > from the ASO management.
> >
> > Well, they were on vacation a week before the start and came there and
> > kicked ass..'if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck'. Bruyneel and
> > Contador is the problem, Astana has nothing to do with it. Vino was
> > never a contender.
> >
> >
> >
> > > Any argument about Astana ticking ASO off is specious, as Astana has
> > > the right to participate, as a pro tour team. Even before the Pro
> > > Tour, the top 15 rated teams were guaranteed a spot in the Tour de
> > > France. Just another reason why the UCI is a necessary evil.
> >
> > > -ilan

Bill C

On Jun 6, 8:42*pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> "Bill C" <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> news:52161a0d-c3c7-4669-8423-18aadad43770@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 5, 11:57 am, hizark21 <hizar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > Yes, but Astana has gotten rid of all the old management and most of
> > > 07's riders. Like I said before the ASO should have told Astana that
> > > they have to resolve certain issues if they want to enter to the
>
> > They have. They told them "Prove it by staying clean for a year."
>
> Think about that statement Bill. Firstly the team has very little control
> over what riders do and since riders become millionaires if they succeed
> they can afford to hire the best and to take chances. The past problems were
> the lower tier riders were using lower tier doctors who didn't know how to
> design the doping regime to clear the testings.
>
> Now the testing protocols are getting so sensitive that most doping won't
> work. That won't stop doping of course but it can limit it which is the best
> we can hope to do.

I'm not willing to give the teams a free pass. There's way too much
evidence that they've known what was going on, or organized it, for
way too many of them.
Now we are back to the quality of the dopingbusts/testing. I was
going to say that the teams need to be allowed/encouraged to recover
money for the damage done, from the rider, for when a rider gets
busted, but with the way Wada, and the UCI hacve conducted themselves
in the past this is a problem too. When the folks running the system
are at least as questionable as the criminals, or supposed criminals,
what the hell do you do.
In a perfect world they'd dump most of the leadership, clean up the
system, open up the system, and start over, but that ain't gonna
happen anytime soon.
In a lot of ways this is like the NBA defending Tim Donaghy, before
he started talking his head off. They said "there's NO way he could
have affected any games because we review all the ref's performances,
in every game, and he's one of our very best!". Well, he says he was
dirty, and so are others, but noone is allowed to see what the system
is, or how it works, and anyone questioning the mighty leadership/
system is given draconian penalties.
They're dirty as shit, but rather than clean the mess up, and give up
power, they'll kill the game, and take as many people down as possible
before going.
When everyone is shoveling shit around you, you're gonna stink too,
and that's unfortunate for those who are clean.
Bill C