Did Astana pay CSF ?

Originally Posted by Denia

Earth Dweller - it would seem to me there is an equal amount of hypocrisy from a number of posters on here who despise all things USP/Discovery/Astana. We all accept doping is widespread across the sport, no one team has a monopoly on it and it was rampant long before the LA and Bruyneel era. I don't think the US taught the Europeans how to cheat at sport. The British, French, Italians and Spanish don't need to look far to find their own cheats - including most, if not all, of the legends of cycling.

Why do people come on here and whinge about Contador and cheer on De Luca or Ricco (or any other rider that the AC haters happen to like) when they are just as likely to be taking PEDs? According to some, Bruyneel operates the world's best doping program but it didn't seem to give AC much of an advantage in recent weeks. His rivals were the ones capable of dropping him on a regular basis - not vice versa. He struggled to win and eked it out thanks to a fair bit of luck to go along with his talent and team's tactics.

And let's not suggest his performance proved that he didn't have time to dope because of the late invitation. Contador has been training since December and racing at a high level since March. He was fit and ready to race and if his program of doping is as sophisticated as is suggested then he wouldn't have been in cold turkey just because the Giro was passing him by. He wasn't, however, mentally prepared for a 3-week stage race. He didn't recce the routes and spend time getting to know the climbs so he was at a disadvantage there. The rest of the "on the beach" story is just good PR - he didn't lose much fitness by taking a few days off mid-season. Whatever combination of PEDs he is on, I'm sure it is a season long program that allows for topping up even when there is only a week or two to fine tune it.

I felt the same way over the LA years. Fair enough not to like him because he was an arrogant shit and because of his disdain for anything other than the Tour. But those that hurled vitriolic abuse at him mostly did so on the assumption that he was a cheat. These same people were open in their admiration for Pantani and Ullrich. Why were they prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt (wrongly as it turned out) yet villify Armstrong? They know full well all of the leading riders have been and continue to be on PEDs, so why be hypocritical and focus all the hatred on one rider or one team?

Sure Armstrong lies about it, but so do all the other riders, do his lies somehow make him a bigger cheat than the rest or is it just because he won? All their directors and doctors know about it, their sponsors all turn a blind eye to it and the governing bodies are useless at preventing it. So, again, why be hypocritical and slam one rider while cheering another?

I don't see how anyone can claim the moral high ground - be you a discanta lover or hater - unless your position is that no rider in any team deserves support, not now, not in the past and not in the future unless being able to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that they never took or will ever take any PEDs. I don't think that would leave many, do you?

I am of the opinion that they are pretty much all equally guilty and therefore enjoy viewing it as a level playing field, or at least as level as any other major sport. Perhaps the main difference today is money. Astana has the money to attract the top riders (and doctors) just as T-Mobile and USP did, its how the employment market operates. In football, Real Madrid has a competitive advantage over Majorca thanks to its riches, it doesn't mean that one is free of corruption and cheating and the other isn't.

I enjoy cycling and sport in general too much to turn my back on it even though cheating is rife, I don't know what the alternative is as I don't think it will change any time soon.

Originally Posted by TheDarkLord

But why is he trying to sell to US fans? The team is not American; the rider is not American; JB is not American. Does he get some form of US funding?

Originally Posted by Denia

Earth Dweller - it would seem to me there is an equal amount of hypocrisy from a number of posters on here who despise all things USP/Discovery/Astana. We all accept doping is widespread across the sport, no one team has a monopoly on it and it was rampant long before the LA and Bruyneel era. I don't think the US taught the Europeans how to cheat at sport. The British, French, Italians and Spanish don't need to look far to find their own cheats - including most, if not all, of the legends of cycling.

......

I enjoy cycling and sport in general too much to turn my back on it even though cheating is rife, I don't know what the alternative is as I don't think it will change any time soon.

Originally Posted by Denia

Earth Dweller - it would seem to me there is an equal amount of hypocrisy from a number of posters on here who despise all things USP/Discovery/Astana. We all accept doping is widespread across the sport, no one team has a monopoly on it and it was rampant long before the LA and Bruyneel era. I don't think the US taught the Europeans how to cheat at sport. The British, French, Italians and Spanish don't need to look far to find their own cheats - including most, if not all, of the legends of cycling.

Why do people come on here and whinge about Contador and cheer on De Luca or Ricco (or any other rider that the AC haters happen to like) when they are just as likely to be taking PEDs? According to some, Bruyneel operates the world's best doping program but it didn't seem to give AC much of an advantage in recent weeks. His rivals were the ones capable of dropping him on a regular basis - not vice versa. He struggled to win and eked it out thanks to a fair bit of luck to go along with his talent and team's tactics.

And let's not suggest his performance proved that he didn't have time to dope because of the late invitation. Contador has been training since December and racing at a high level since March. He was fit and ready to race and if his program of doping is as sophisticated as is suggested then he wouldn't have been in cold turkey just because the Giro was passing him by. He wasn't, however, mentally prepared for a 3-week stage race. He didn't recce the routes and spend time getting to know the climbs so he was at a disadvantage there. The rest of the "on the beach" story is just good PR - he didn't lose much fitness by taking a few days off mid-season. Whatever combination of PEDs he is on, I'm sure it is a season long program that allows for topping up even when there is only a week or two to fine tune it.

I felt the same way over the LA years. Fair enough not to like him because he was an arrogant shit and because of his disdain for anything other than the Tour. But those that hurled vitriolic abuse at him mostly did so on the assumption that he was a cheat. These same people were open in their admiration for Pantani and Ullrich. Why were they prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt (wrongly as it turned out) yet villify Armstrong? They know full well all of the leading riders have been and continue to be on PEDs, so why be hypocritical and focus all the hatred on one rider or one team?

Sure Armstrong lies about it, but so do all the other riders, do his lies somehow make him a bigger cheat than the rest or is it just because he won? All their directors and doctors know about it, their sponsors all turn a blind eye to it and the governing bodies are useless at preventing it. So, again, why be hypocritical and slam one rider while cheering another?

I don't see how anyone can claim the moral high ground - be you a discanta lover or hater - unless your position is that no rider in any team deserves support, not now, not in the past and not in the future unless being able to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that they never took or will ever take any PEDs. I don't think that would leave many, do you?

I am of the opinion that they are pretty much all equally guilty and therefore enjoy viewing it as a level playing field, or at least as level as any other major sport. Perhaps the main difference today is money. Astana has the money to attract the top riders (and doctors) just as T-Mobile and USP did, its how the employment market operates. In football, Real Madrid has a competitive advantage over Majorca thanks to its riches, it doesn't mean that one is free of corruption and cheating and the other isn't.

I enjoy cycling and sport in general too much to turn my back on it even though cheating is rife, I don't know what the alternative is as I don't think it will change any time soon.

Originally Posted by musette

ilpirata -- Thanks

"Riccò was incensed. When he found out he had missed the pink jersey by four seconds, he spat the obscenity "Vanffancùlo!" and fired resentful remarks at Contador and the Italian collaborators. Alberto's reaction to Riccò's performance was to complement him on the attack and say plainly that he was not intimidated."

Using obscene language is not the way to show one's grace under pressure. Nor is it the mark of a calm and collected champion.

Contador: ""Compliments to Di Luca and Riccò today after making beautiful attacks, which makes for an interesting Giro. I kept the maglia rosa, but I’m not going to obsess on the differences to Riccò or Di Luca. It was important to keep the pink jersey today for the psychological factor. They still have to take it away from me."

http://www.albertocontadornotebook.info/giro2008.html

Originally Posted by earth_dweller

Denia, thanks for the thoughful comments.

First of all, no where have I said that only Astana dopes.

Yes I admit to being biased against the Astana fans that for me do not embody cycling fans.

I have, as we all have, gone thru seven years of the USPS/Discovery PR machine that has thrown out unbelievable garbage (lies) such as 'high cadence', 'works and trains harder than every else' and my favorite 'most tested athlete' to try and explain the success. And these were bought hook, line & sinker by the team's fans, and repeated ad nauseum by the English media. My God, they have changed cycling history so that Armstrong/Bruyneel invented all the tactics and strategies. As a cycling fan, I abhor that line of thought.

And if I had the audacity to question any action by the team, be it as mundane as calling into question a move in a race, I would be labeled as anti-American, hater, jealous,..... by the team fans.

And Armstrong did a lot more than lie about his doping, such as the Simeoni incident - completely way over board would you not agree? And the vitriolic attacks on Lemond, Andreu instigated by the team and repeated by the fans are also fanning the flames.

I thought that it would finally be over but no, it has resurected with Astana. And it's gotten worse, the lies are more outrageous (come on he was at the beach, 80% of his form, blah blah), the fans now claim that their team is clean but thrown any kind of insinuations against the other riders....

So yes I have a knee jerk reaction against Astana and the blind fans that follow the team and repeat verbatim and believe everything that comes out from the PR machine.

It is one thing to be fan of a team and/or specific riders, heck we all are, but it is another thing completely to throw any intellectual reasoning out the window and follow blindly whatever comes out of the team. So yes, I will continue to mock fans like Musette who cannot use her brain when it comes to Astana.

As far as Contador, yes he did win the Giro against other dopers. But he was not lying on the beach before it started, and all the other nonsense that has been spouted. And yes, there was an agreement between CSF and Astana - not the first time that teams have worked together and not the last.

Originally Posted by hawkeye87

+1

So good, it's worth repeating the entire post.

The hypocrisy from Astana and their fans is so aggravating that it is beyond anything else in pro cycling.

Other teams have issues too, but it is not so widespread or so eagerly swallowed up by the press. I certainly hope Slipstream is clean but we don't know. I'm pretty sure that one of the teams I have liked (CSC) is not clean with all of their riders but I know their fans still blindly think they are. Now that their anti-doping program is underground and the results are no longer shared publicly, they have lost what credibility they had.

Originally Posted by musette

Bruyneel noted:

"He [AC] didn't preview the stages, he didn't ride the mountain passes, and neither he nor his team were close to top form when the race began. And so they raced with their heads as much as their legs, knowing when they needed to lead and when they needed to conserve their energy. We knew it would be close, but yet we also knew we had the reigning Tour de France champion. As we saw with Lance Armstrong, great riders can bring out the best in their teammates. Alberto Contador did just that in the 2008 Giro d'Italia, and we look forward to the days ahead.”

Originally Posted by TheDarkLord

Are you giving a bj to JB or something? It's a wonder that you keep setting yourself up for a bashing from others...

Originally Posted by micron

I'd like earth dwellers permission to use that post anytime someone like feedbag asks me why I'm such a 'hater'

Trouble with the cultists is that everything is viewed through the very narrow filter of what one team does - they have no appreciation of the sport, its rich history, its great names, the grand exploits - it is for this reason they can rationalise Contador's poor excuse for a ride in the Giro - because they simply don't know about the achievements the true Greats of the sport. Now they're all suddenly huge fans of the Giro and the Vuelta - last year it would have been Giro de Where? Vuelta a Who?

Originally Posted by earth_dweller

she's enjoying it, she's enjoying getting a rile out of the board.

just ignore.

Originally Posted by hawkeye87

Yes. Let's quit feeding the trolls, shall we?

They really are not worth the effort.