Did Astana pay CSF ?

hawkeye87

Oh c'mon. You know if Contador was at "full strength" he would have won by Basso 2006 margins. I read somewhere (in one of the Astanafan websites...Velonews maybe) that Bruyneel guessed Contador was riding at 80% of his fitness.

It truly goes to reflect JB's utter contempt for any grand tour outside of the TdF since he has so obviously dismissed the competition at the Giro.

I won't weigh in on the payments to CSF as it really does stink too much of conspiracy theory and I do not tend to agree with them, in general.

But the spin associated with Astana's preparation, readiness, etc. is disgusting enough without reading and hearing it repeated 10 times each article or broadcast by the eager-to-please Bruyneel press.

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Crankyfeet

Wow... Contador really is a superman. He not only raced clean and beat all the other dopers in the field... but he won at only 80% of his normal fitness...

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Denia

Earth Dweller - it would seem to me there is an equal amount of hypocrisy from a number of posters on here who despise all things USP/Discovery/Astana. We all accept doping is widespread across the sport, no one team has a monopoly on it and it was rampant long before the LA and Bruyneel era. I don't think the US taught the Europeans how to cheat at sport. The British, French, Italians and Spanish don't need to look far to find their own cheats - including most, if not all, of the legends of cycling.

Why do people come on here and whinge about Contador and cheer on De Luca or Ricco (or any other rider that the AC haters happen to like) when they are just as likely to be taking PEDs? According to some, Bruyneel operates the world's best doping program but it didn't seem to give AC much of an advantage in recent weeks. His rivals were the ones capable of dropping him on a regular basis - not vice versa. He struggled to win and eked it out thanks to a fair bit of luck to go along with his talent and team's tactics.

And let's not suggest his performance proved that he didn't have time to dope because of the late invitation. Contador has been training since December and racing at a high level since March. He was fit and ready to race and if his program of doping is as sophisticated as is suggested then he wouldn't have been in cold turkey just because the Giro was passing him by. He wasn't, however, mentally prepared for a 3-week stage race. He didn't recce the routes and spend time getting to know the climbs so he was at a disadvantage there. The rest of the "on the beach" story is just good PR - he didn't lose much fitness by taking a few days off mid-season. Whatever combination of PEDs he is on, I'm sure it is a season long program that allows for topping up even when there is only a week or two to fine tune it.

I felt the same way over the LA years. Fair enough not to like him because he was an arrogant shit and because of his disdain for anything other than the Tour. But those that hurled vitriolic abuse at him mostly did so on the assumption that he was a cheat. These same people were open in their admiration for Pantani and Ullrich. Why were they prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt (wrongly as it turned out) yet villify Armstrong? They know full well all of the leading riders have been and continue to be on PEDs, so why be hypocritical and focus all the hatred on one rider or one team?

Sure Armstrong lies about it, but so do all the other riders, do his lies somehow make him a bigger cheat than the rest or is it just because he won? All their directors and doctors know about it, their sponsors all turn a blind eye to it and the governing bodies are useless at preventing it. So, again, why be hypocritical and slam one rider while cheering another?

I don't see how anyone can claim the moral high ground - be you a discanta lover or hater - unless your position is that no rider in any team deserves support, not now, not in the past and not in the future unless being able to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that they never took or will ever take any PEDs. I don't think that would leave many, do you?

I am of the opinion that they are pretty much all equally guilty and therefore enjoy viewing it as a level playing field, or at least as level as any other major sport. Perhaps the main difference today is money. Astana has the money to attract the top riders (and doctors) just as T-Mobile and USP did, its how the employment market operates. In football, Real Madrid has a competitive advantage over Majorca thanks to its riches, it doesn't mean that one is free of corruption and cheating and the other isn't.

I enjoy cycling and sport in general too much to turn my back on it even though cheating is rife, I don't know what the alternative is as I don't think it will change any time soon.

micron

Here's a thought - absolutely transparent doping programmes which establish absolute parity between riders - give everyone the same shit and then at least we really do have that 'level playing field' that's always spoken about. Oh and ban them for life if they stray from what they say they're doing.

TheDarkLord

Hypocrisy is the wrong word. If the people here were to say that the competitors were clean, then I agree that they are being hypocritical. But most people here don't believe that Di Luca, Ullrich, Pantani, et al. were/are clean (if you think otherwise, you just don't know the regulars here). The real hypocrites are the Disco supporters aka cultists, who believe that their heroes are clean, and then hurl doping accusations at the competition.

Hatred concentrated on one team has to do with psychology arising from a dislike of the Hog/LA. Perhaps you'll understand it if you develop a strong like/dislike for a particular team for whatever reason. It has the effect of supporting any team that has a chance to win against the team that you despise.

earth_dweller

A reality show based on this could be... entertaining.

Unfortunately, the riders/teams/doctors/DS would always be looking for the extra bang so there would still be cheating going on. Still no way to enfore what you are proposing (somewhat in jest I assume) unless the riders are monitored 24 hours a day, every day.

linenoiz

\

Still OT:

I've always wondered why this bothered people so much. Except that people were upset that the local guy got ganged up by two ProTour guys. You have to remember that Levi expected to be "the man" for disco at the time. So I expect he was trying to build up some good will, to be paid of later at the tour.

What I think is more interesting, is GH vs Levi this last year. GH was not happy with Levi for taking off without him. (At least thats what I felt by reading what I could afterwards.)

micron

That's it - let em dope but control it so tightly, monitor it so closely that it becomes a pain in the butt and easier to not bother.

musette

As mentioned above, AC/Astama overcame a lot of disadvantages by racing strategically and carefully: The last minute invitation by the Giro organizers, which meant AC was, as mentioned above, neither mentally prepared nor in ideal form for the race. Lack of recon of the routes, etc.

But equally importantly, AC overcame an elbow fracture to win!

"Alberto Contador's visit to the radiologist today revealed a fissure in the radius head of his left elbow. The fracture without dislocation stems from his Stage 8 crash from Rivisondoli to Tivoli. Though Contador was able to complete the stage and yesterday's Stage 9, the bruising and discomfort prompted a formal examination on the Giro d'Italia's first rest day. The x-rays showed that the fracture is stable and the 2007 Tour de France Champion has been cleared to ride tomorrow's time-trial. "As all riders know, winning a Grand Tour takes some hard work, luck and health. Unfortunately, having a small fracture does not make the journey to Milan any easier, but I'm motivated and will try to fight through the pain," said Contador after his afternoon training ride. "I do not intend to leave the race", commented Alberto Contador at his return to the team hotel. "During my training ride of today, I felt my elbow, but I felt as well that I could do the normal or desired efforts. So, why should I leave the race then? Moreover, this race is one of the big cycling monuments. I am a hard one, I stay. The last days my legs felt better and better. The longer I was in the Giro, the better I felt.” An extra problem can be that, due to the position of the injury, the aerodynamic position on the time trial bike cannot be fully obtained. "That is a problem for tomorrow,” continues Alberto Contador. "I hope I still make a good time trial. The doctors tell me that it is a small fracture. With a bit luck, I can recover a bit during the "easier" stages of Wednesday to Friday.""

Imagine how hard it must be to ride with even a small elbow fracture.

hawkeye87

We understand. He is the Jesus Christ of cycling.

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Leafer

Imagine how hard it must be to be at only 80% fitness, with allergies, dental problems, and an elbow fracture, and still manage to beat the other riders at 100% fitness at the one race they focus their entire season around.

Now just imagine how hard it must be to do that clean. Just imagine.

ilpirata

There is no evidence that Marco Pantani ever used banned substances or methods. Contrary to the other two gentlemen you mention. That does not mean that he did not, just that to say "wrongly as it turned out" suggests you have some evidence that he cheated.
Consider also that he is the only one of three to win back to back grand tours (foregoing therefore the 'specialized priming methods' for the tour de France). Consider also that he was not on a big money team in 1998. Therefore at worst in my opinion, he could be using common material or methods that everyone else was using while starting the tour with fatigued legs. And still, It is possible he was clean, because he was a great climber even as a youth, and had big mountain stage wins in 1994 and 1995 without being a team captain.

micron

Feedbag, most of us simply rolled our eyes at the news of Contador's fracture - another excuse, another TUE.

You clearly didn't hear Roche and Kelly's masterly summation of Contador's performance on ESUK - suffice to say their praise was hardly forthcoming. I'll assume you know who Roche and Kelly are - if not, shame on you.

Crankyfeet

Has everyone got me on "ignore"?...

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