Did Astana pay CSF ?

wolfix

The controversies in the Giro are what the Giro has historically has been about.The race itself in certain years have been the sideshow.

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musette

The thought that Liquigas was deliberately helping AC is even more ridiculous. Obviously Pellizotti was trying to keep up with Bruseghin and Menchov, and vice versa, and to contest the third podium spot. Also, obviously, all of those three were trying to get as high up on GC for themselves as possible or at a minimum, not to lose time relative to key GC rivals (excluding Ricco and AC).

Stage 20 Results

1 Emanuele Sella (Ita) CSF Group Navigare 6.52.45 (33.725 km/h)
2 Gilberto Simoni (other times)
3 Joaquin Rodriguez
4 Riccardo Riccò (Ita) Saunier Duval - Scott 1.30
5 Alberto Contador Velasco (Sp) Astana
6 Antonio Colom Mas (Spa) Astana
7 Fortunato Baliani (Ita) CSF GroupNavigare
8 Marzio Bruseghin (Ita) Lampre
9 Tadej Valjavec (Slo) AG2R La Mondiale
10 Franco Pellizotti (Ita) Liquigas
11 Denis Menchov (Rus) Rabobank
12 Domenico Pozzovivo (Ita) CSF Group Navigare
13 Jurgen Van Den Broeck (Bel) Silence - Lotto

And, frankly, Astana is about to establish AC as the next "boss" of the peloton, just like LA in a year or two. So it would not be surprising if some other teams (even those that did not ride the Tour regularly) may want to lend a helping hand where possible, as a gesture of goodwill in hopes of future assistance on unspecified races.

thoughtforfood

Umm....you Astanaphiles forget that your first second comming Basso will be back, and he will want his crown back.

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musette

Upon any Basso return, that would make things more interesting, but that would also test Bruyneel and Astana in a way that would be wonderful if they continued their Tour dominance.

linenoiz

I don't think CSF was bought either, however I do remember contador asking a favor or rodrigas to keep ricco from getting the time bonuses. When you're a loud mouth you make some enemies.

And I don't think colom getting bottles from the CSF car is a big deal. They were up the road and I'm sure thats a professional courtesy.

musette

Asking a favor of a compatriot Spanish cyclist, when no Spanish cyclist has won the Giro since M.I., is entirely normal. In fact, that AC had to ask (if he did) suggests that there was no prior coordination prior to the request.

I agree the Colom water bottles were entirely mutual professional courtesy. Also, providing water to a third escapee on a long stage when you have two cyclists with that escapee would tend to allow that escapee to continue to work with your two cyclists. So that act could also be seen as being potentially self-interested.

Especially since CSF knew that Colom might not contest the stage win if he had to wait for his maglia rosa team leader, who was behind. If the two CSFs were to decide, later, to go for the stage win, they would outnumber Colom and Colom would probably have to conserve his energies to help AC, so the chances were pretty good, had the group stayed ahead a bit further, for one of the two CSFs to take the stage. Of course another CSF took the stage, deservedly.

In fact, it would seem like not such prudent strategy for CSF to decide to deprive Colom of water, if they knew the history of how Astana operates. They go for the big wins -- like the maglia rosa -- and they will easily sacrifice a Colom chance at a stage win for extra help to preserve the maglia rosa. Depriving Colom of water would have only weakened a "natural" (i.e., strategically natural) ally who could help the CSF cause of winning the stage and whose main motivation, as everybody knows, is to be in a position to help AC.

Also, if I were the CSF director sportif, I would know that Sella had ended up assisting AC a lot on the stage before (Stage 19) (whether deliberate or not), and so I would probably know that Bruyneel/Yates/Galo. would be willing to givem y CSF team the stage win even if Colom arrived at the end of the stage with the 2 CSFs. Out of unbargained for "pay back" for the actual help, regardless of whether Sella intended mainly to help AC or to advance his own cause.

I think some posters would be well-served thinking in a slightly more strategic manner and considering various alternatives before making unsubstantiated allegations of pay-offs among teams.

musette

A couple of additional indications of what motivated Sella:

1. Sella's Own Thoughts

"I did not expect this [allegation of deliberately aiding AC] from Riccò. I tried to attack for the classification; I saw that Simoni was gapped and so maybe I had a chance at the podium. I have to ask Riccò if he thinks he win the Giro. Riccò causes his problems; I want to ride my race. It was hard for me to win the stage today, and I tried to move up in the classification. I think that Riccò made a mistake to cause these problems, like always."

Remember, the GC after Stage 18 was as follows:

General classification after stage 18

1 Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) Astana 75.45.17
2 Riccardo Riccò (Ita) Saunier Duval - Scott 0.41
3 Gilberto Simoni (Ita) Serramenti 1.21
4 Marzio Bruseghin (Ita) Lampre 2.00
5 Franco Pellizotti (Ita) Liquigas 2.05
6 Danilo Di Luca (Ita) LPR Brakes 2.18
7 Denis Menchov (Rus) Rabobank 2.47
8 Emanuele Sella (Ita) CSF Group Navigare 4.25
9 Jurgen Van Den Broeck (Bel) Silence - Lotto 4.26

In other words, since Simoni was in difficulty during Stage 19, there was an opening for a group of riders in the Bruseghin/Pellizotti/Di Luca/Menchov group to move up. But right after that group of four, we see Sella lodged in at #8 even before the stage. He was less than 2 1/2 minutes behind #4 after Stage 18 (Bruseghin). With Stage 20 left (another mountain stage), Sella might have legitimately believed himself to have a limited, but not impossible, chance at a #3 spot.

Also, notice that after Stage 18, Jurgen van den Broeck was only 1 second beyond Sella in GC. If anything, Sella wanted to keep ahead of that cyclist.

2. Ricco's Allegatons Seem Unsubstantiated

"In the end, Contador always finds someone to help... we saw Sella and Pozzovivo [both of CSF Group]. They should have stayed on the wheel and let him pull, but maybe their DS told to them to pull," Riccò blasted. He then aimed directly at Contador, saying, "Someone said that he is stronger on the climbs, but I don't know. I think that I have dropped him on every summit finish so far." On tomorrow's final day in the mountains, he added, "I hope Panaria [CSF Group] does not pull from behind.""

Well, Ricco, you might want to remember that the maglia rosa doesn't go to somebody who is stronger only on the climbs. Otherwise, it might go to Sella instead of to you

TheDarkLord

I don't know much about the normal customs/courtesy in pro races. Is it normal for someone to be handed a bottle from another team? This is certainly the first time I'm seeing something like this, but then one doesn't normally pay attention to these things when watching a race.

earth_dweller

OMG, musette is telling us to think in a more strategic manner.

now that shit is funny.

btw, if folks are wondering about my disdain for musette (and a few like her) is because she represents the type Discatana fans that I dislike - some of the most hypocritical people I've encountered on boards.

On one hand, she goes around all innocent-like defending her favorites, repeating the mantra that everyone is innocent until they fail a test, and then will throw out accusations against other riders of doping, by using their race performance or history. Also, they will never, ever entertain that their team might make a mistake during a race, bring up a question on their tactics, and you are accused of being anti-American or jealous or some such nonsense. Definitely not a true fan of cycling. Back to putting musette on ignore along with the others... it's getting to be a full house on the ignore list.

Now, on the other hand, there are folks out there that are fans of certain riders on the team and at the same time are fans of cycling. thank goodness.

ilpirata

Nicely composed! I am in full agreement.
I wonder if CSF or another team will build around Sella as a team captain and truly plan from the start to compete for the GC of a grand tour as opposed to going for just certain stage wins. Obviously CSF began to see Sella could place well in the GC after two stage wins and a second place on the chrono-climb.

huboon

(Off topic) Oh no, you've reminded me of Levi (still in his Gerolsteiner jersey but signed with Disco) getting bottles for Hincapie as they ganged up on Andy Bajadali in the US Champs two years ago. An episode that still turns my stomach!

musette

ilpirata -- Thanks

"Riccò was incensed. When he found out he had missed the pink jersey by four seconds, he spat the obscenity "Vanffancùlo!" and fired resentful remarks at Contador and the Italian collaborators. Alberto's reaction to Riccò's performance was to complement him on the attack and say plainly that he was not intimidated."

Using obscene language is not the way to show one's grace under pressure. Nor is it the mark of a calm and collected champion.

Contador: ""Compliments to Di Luca and Riccò today after making beautiful attacks, which makes for an interesting Giro. I kept the maglia rosa, but I’m not going to obsess on the differences to Riccò or Di Luca. It was important to keep the pink jersey today for the psychological factor. They still have to take it away from me."

http://www.albertocontadornotebook.info/giro2008.html

TheDarkLord

No points for repeating the obvious. It is known that Ricco is hot headed. What about your supreme hero LA - was he calm and collected always?

Leafer

Like us, Prudhomme saw a rider at less than top fitness who kept having to run off to the "dentist" in Madrid win the most brutal Giro in years by minutes over top-form riders who focused on that one race, in which the tiny climber out-tt'ed the bigger, heavier flatland tt specialists on a slightly downhill course.

He's very happy with his decision to ban Astana from the Tour.