Giro D'Italia 2008 : Stage 21 - June 1st : Cesano Maderno => Milano (ITT), 28.5 km

thoughtforfood

BTW you do realize Fuentes is a gyneocologist....right?

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Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.
-- Albert Einstein

hawkeye87

Kudos ad9898 on your avatar. It's perfect for you.

I had started a lengthy response and lost it but suffice it to say that a lot of the negativity you read here is disappointment that cycling is not clean and does not appear to be headed that way.

So long as groups of riders, SDs or team managers continue to find success using the old methods of doping that are largely successful, we will not have a clean pelaton.

I find the spin that Bruyneel passed off on the media for the Giro to be absolutely sick. It has been made even worse as those media outlets (mostly in the U.S. but some in the U.K.) have not only swallowed it up, but repeat it like a mantra every chance they get.

How probable do you think it is that a team that only had 1 weeks notice turns around and wins a Grand Tour and, if not for the highly suspicious CSF team, would have won the team competition too?

But we don't need to test Alberto Contador, we already know he's clean. Just ask Pat McQuaid of the UCI. He declared Contador was clean more than a month ago. He's never declared that about any other rider in recent memory but he has the inside scoop on Astana's inner workings. Wouldn't you find that fishy if the head of the organization set to certify testing singles out one rider as clean?

It's impossible to prove that a rider is clean. You can show the lack of negative tests or blood values. But, the fact is, none of those have been made public. Only CSC published results and that has been more than a year ago now. They have seemed to have gone underground with this as well.

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"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take." -- Wayne Gretzsky

Denia

No, that was part of my point. The other part was to question the hypocrisy of the AC haters who slam him for doping while supporting his rivals and to ask why it was okay to support Pantani, Ullrich, Heras, Hamiltion, Vinokourov, Landis etc. yet demonize Armstrong. You say Armstrong's speech about "not believing in miracles" makes you sick but isn't that what the rest of them have effectively said? Haven't all of the top riders denied doping even in the face of positive tests? Didn't they all offer excuses and explanations for irregular results? Armstrong has only spun out the same story as the rest - no better, no worse. Why bother following pro cycling if doping disgusts you - you know they all do it and you know it has always been thus.

I am happy to support one rider over another, or diss another rider because of his loud mouth or style of riding. But I won't delude myself that there is a worldwide masterplan that ensures only those that ride for the Hog are going to evade dope tests and win Grand Tours. AC was a shade better than his rivals this Giro, he didn't perform super-human feats, he didn't blast his opponents apart and he didn't win with any panache - but he won and that's what counts.

As far as the Spanish doctors go, perhaps you can point me in the direction of the countries where doctors routinely fail to give professional cyclists a clean bill of health. I don't recall the medics in the US, the UK, France, Holland or Italy playing a leading role in getting riders disqualified.

poulidor

For bribery and collusion with UCI... just recall:
- Armstrong's money to UCI (or to Verbbruggen?)
- some teams, especially US, have done testing in spanish WADA lab,
- how is acting, speaking UCI is something like a corrupted system,
- the positive test leaked because they risked to be "cleared" by UCI

There is a lot of clues in the last years that have showed the anormality and the corruption of the system.

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6 samples with EPO have banned Lance Armstrong of TDF !

hawkeye87

I was a former Armstrong fan. I still have the yellow armband, though it sits tucked in a drawer and not worn anymore.

I admired Ullrich's talent but he was a competitor to Armstrong so was never in his camp.

Vino was incredible. His attacking style was dynamic to watch. He would light up everything with his performances.

The trouble is, while cheering for those performances then, I cannot look back at them with fondness anymore because the plain and simple fact is those performances occurred with the aid of either drugs or blood-doping. If those methods did not have all of the baggage as being dangerous to an athletes current or long-term health and setting a horrible precedent for youths to follow (do a google search on former MLB pitcher Bert Hooten who lost his teenage son to suicide from steriod use), I'd say fine, let them all dope.

But I guess I have some naivety in thinking that perhaps cycling was truly going to clean up.

I probably will have less and less interest in cycling as it appears they are not interested in cleaning it up. But, U.S. fans are not the real target audience. They won't be back in droves unless another American wins 7 Tours and has the potential to top it with 8.

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"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take." -- Wayne Gretzsky

Crankyfeet

Shame you can't work to clean up the sport, Mellow J, because you need to keep your own dirty past well hidden. Money can make people ugly inside.

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thoughtforfood

I covered that ground in another post.

I love cycling, and I detest the aggressive manner in which Pharmstrong (and by proxy The Hog) went after anyone who dared question them. As to all the others you name, well, I detest them too. Notice that 50% of those you named rode with Pharmstrong? I wanted them all to be clean, they weren't. Not only were they not, but they continued to deny their doping when caught.

If someone is caught and admits their doping, I will drop them off the list.(and I can put anyone on my list I choose. Pharmstrong is at the top, yes, but there are many others) JB is still on it too, and so is any team in which he is the DS.

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Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.
-- Albert Einstein

TheDarkLord

This was an ok discussion until suggestions came in that we shouldn't be discussing this and that in the first place; of course the point you refer to above happened in another thread but that doesn't matter. Also, you may or may not have seen the threads here last year; but you definitely need your wits to survive here. It is not for the weak at heart.

thoughtforfood

+1
Ouch!

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Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.
-- Albert Einstein

missile

ok, the circle jerk thing was excessive and lowering myself to your level (can't help myself there sometimes).

With so much criticism and negativity regarding cycling, I have started finding it difficult to even follow the races anymore.

Peace out, for now...

RdBiker

The climb was the Giau on stage 15. Contador was dropped by the favourites and only caught back because the guys up front didn't really hammer it and he received help from a few other riders from other teams. There he could have really lost the race and Astana can't really have that happen again. Liquigas and LPR had atleast two riders up there at that point.
Contador isn't as dominating as Armstrong was and most times he had IIRC Rubiera or Azevedo to help until the group thinned to 5-10 riders. Contador needs in my opinion a superdomestique who is on the road at a level that Klöden is on paper to be sure of GT wins.

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It never gets easier, you just go faster
Oton ATK Sandisk Mp3-soittimet ja Koss kuulokkeet

thoughtforfood

For the record, I wish it wasn't so negative also, but I do not believe it is I who am making it negative. It is the riders who continue to dope, and until that is not the norm (and I do believe it still is), I will continue to make reference to it.

"lowering myself to your level"....um....I didn't once refer to taking out my cock and getting it hard, and whacking it in a circle with other guys until you made reference to that particular act (yes I left out the cracker, because really, that is going too far)....maybe you need to look up and not down to find me....

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Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.
-- Albert Einstein

hawkeye87

Right! Too much sunshine today, the brain fried. I was not able to catch any of that live as I was out of town at a dog show. I had to read about it, instead, which is much different from watching it.


Well, he's not doing too badly for his efforts so far having netted 2 GT victories in the past 10 months.

It is amazing how much the media wants to toss him up as so unstoppable.

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"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take." -- Wayne Gretzsky

Crankyfeet

I just wonder how Vino's going to re-enter this team if his suspension ends this year. I can't imagine him going back to being a domestique within Astana.

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