Giro D'Italia 2008 : Stage 21 - June 1st : Cesano Maderno => Milano (ITT), 28.5 km

TheDarkLord

Fair enough. I don't know if you are a cultist, but we have had many people come with Astana = Team America, AC = next Armstrong, JB = God, etc. Hence, the general negativity here towards supporters of the boys of the Hog.

thoughtforfood

I had heard there were registration problems, are they still happening?

And I will also say that generally, calling someone a loser is ALWAYS done by someone far superior to someone such as myself, so I guess I need to eat my Wheaties and get some new friends. You guys had better get a job in Hollywood soon, or I will drop you like Brittney does here panties.

__________________
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.
-- Albert Einstein

TheDarkLord

I think so. I don't think any new folk have gotten posting previlages.

Denia

I use the word "if" because I don't profess to be a know-it-all, but my post also highlights the fact that I accept he probably does as do the rest - what's new? Why the hate for something that has always been? Out of interest, which team have you supported over the years? Which great cyclists did you enjoy seeing winning the Tour, the Vuelta and the Giro? If they all doped, and the evidence would suggest that is more likely than not, what's your point re. "Contadope"? Or do you just hate cycling and whoever happens to be the winner? Maybe your philosophy is it's okay to dope as long as you don't win because then you must really be a cheat above all cheats.

Ho-hum, and you lose your bet by the way, I´ve never visited the other forum site.

Denia

No cultist, just not keen on the hypocricy of hating a rider for alleged doping while swooning over any rival who is just as likely to be guilty of the same.

If I Lived in Italy I would have been hoping an Italian won, If I lived in the UK then I would have been cheering on Cavendish or Wiggins. Wanting Contador to win, or Sastre or, in the past, Delgado or Indurain does not make Spaniards or people living here into Stars and Stripes apologists.

I noted that the Italians lining the route today gave Contador plenty of applause from start to finish. Good for them, pity those living further afield can't be so sportsmanlike.

TheDarkLord

The negativity here has really nothing to do with nationality. Most people who have posted negative things about AC haven't done it because he is Spanish. The one thing most people here share is a hatred of JB. He has collusions with the UCI which enables him to juice up his boys in a way others don't have the liberty to do. All his actions support doping in cycling. Hence, the hatred of boys who are groomed by the Hog. If the people here are Stars and Stripes apologists, they wouldn't be saying negative things about Leipheimer...

thoughtforfood

I supported Pharmstrong, Hamilton and his twin, and FLandis at points. I was a USPS guy....then I began reading about the effects of specific substances on performance and that combined with the number of people getting caught, and who those people were, where they placed in regards fo Pharmstrong and others, and I ceased my denial. Once I came to reality, I began to look at things that happened, performances that occurred and it really pissed me off. So, looks like you don't know as much as you think there denial boy.

Until I cease seeing things like Sella's ride and Contadope winning a GT with "no real preparation," I will cast doubt upon those performances, and wish for a time when miraculous rides no longer happen. It may never happen, and I will still follow cycling because it is the greatest sport to both participate in and watch. I have cycled and watched cycling a long time.

Now, since you dont post at DP, please feel free to visit because you will fit in quite well with several there.

__________________
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.
-- Albert Einstein

thoughtforfood

My problem really is less Contadope, and much more about The Hog. Contadope just happens to ride for The Hog, and I know what that means regarding his "program." They definately have the best "program" in existence. That also means that I will not cheer their victories. I will freely admit however that I would rather see other dopers beat Astana because of the fraud perpitrated by The Hog and his men in the past.

__________________
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.
-- Albert Einstein

Denia

I accept that the negativity towards AC is not fuelled by his nationality. I cited nationality as the reason I was happy to see him win - I couldn't give a stuff whether he was riding for Astana or Tinkoff. I don't see how a Spanish rider in a Ukrainian team with a Belgian director and a multitiude of other nationalities on board could be construed as Team America.

I'll bow to your superior knowledge on JBs mastery of the dark arts of doping and why he somehow knows how to do it better than everyone else. I can't imagine he knows anything about PEDs that his competitors don't. Nor do I believe he has a magical hold over the all the laboratories and testers across the world to the point where his riders get the best "juice" and a free pass - too many loose threads to that argument. A conspiracy (or "collusion") on that scale would be up there with who shot JFK - too many people would sell him out at the first chance. Maybe he's just lucky, maybe his luck will run out.

My two main ponts today were to congratulate Contador on a great win and to highlight the hypocricy of those who slam him for doing something that they acknowledge the rest of his competitors do also. I'm not a doping apologist - I accept it is rife in sport, including cycling. It doesn't, however, detract from my enjoyment of the sport or make me spout hatred towards one rider over another.

Denia

You seem to be having a problem interpreting what I say. I am not in denial about PEDs in cycling and I haven't suggested Astana, AC or JB aren't involved in a doping program. My point was clearly stated in the first post - "cycling is a dirty business". My question was why slam AC or Armstrong for doing what those who have gone before them as well as for those who competed against them did? Hypocricy, pure and simple.

On a less contentious note, the media have run with the AC not being prepared story because it makes good headlines. The "no real prepararion" part has an element of truth however if you accept that mental prepartion is important and plays a major role in sports performance. AC has been racing since March and is clearly fit. He wasn't however expecting to ride the Giro and had, therefore, not prepared to peak for a 3-week race in May. Instead he has been scrapping for wins in minor stage races throuhout the spring to give his season some purpose (and his sponsors some return). He has been winning races in Spain that he wouldn't have been expected to do anything other than turn up and appear at.

I don't think it is unreasonable to suggest that he would have trained differently if he had known in January that he would be riding the Giro. De Luca, Simoni and Ricco, on the other hand, prepared for the Giro as their main focus for the whole year. Contador fought hard for his win and could have lost it without too much complaint. I didn't see any miracle performances from him - instead I saw a mixed bag of good days and bad days; days when his team tactics were better than his rivals and days when he was lucky that the other riders weren't capable of hammering home an advantage. Luck, fate or whatever else you call it plays a huge part in all sport - it is often that unpredictability that makes it worth watching. A crash here, a slipped chain there - such things often separate the winners from the losers. This year such instances may have wrecked Ricco's Giro, he certainly thinks so. I don't see him inferring that it was all the Hogs fault.

NJK

But why did US Postal in an era of systematic doping never have a failed test in or out of competition and then when riders leave the team they fail dope tests. Contador is a rider i would have liked 10yrs ago like as he is a climber but the whole Armstrong, Bruyneel, Astana, Sainz, Puerto, anymore... It stinks.

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www.njktraining.co.uk

thoughtforfood

Hypocrisy, the most constant of human traits. I have no problem with it because any person, honestly examining their various and sundry opinions would find much. I simply dislike emincely the manner in which Pharmstrong has preached his lies from the podium and with his bike (Simeoni) and detest his "Some people can't believe in miracles.." spiel. I think he is a prick, and The Hog was complicit in all of it. I do not like them or their teams, and never will.

Now, again, so long as I read "if" in a statement regarding doping, for just that long will I consider the person in question to be in denial irrespective of how much they hold. You seem like an ok person other than I do not believe you realistically view Pharmstrong, Contadope, or The Hog. I detest them. I do not detest others. Hell, I still like Hincape even though I am sure he dopes. I am fine with my hypocrisy.

__________________
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.
-- Albert Einstein

ad9898

Denia, I wouldn't bother trying to argue a point, you have journo's, amateur riders and some couch potatoes on here, most of which would get blown out of the back within 10k's on a GT, yet are experts in the field

Denia

Hi - I Clearly I don't have the answer to your question as to why USP riders tested clean while others didn't, I don't imagine anyone else on here does. I'm not arguing they were not juiced. My point is that it is not feasible to believe that there is collusion across the world by labs, testers and governing bodies to give JB protection. If there was it would have been uncovered long before now - too much money to be made selling that story for it to remain untold.

Nor can I give credit to the argument that Bruyneel is so much smarter than the other directors that he has devised a fail-proof plan that has gone undiscovered for 8 years without anyone else being able to access it. That gives him a level of ingenuity to rank alongside a Bond super villain. Those riders that left USP and Discovery would clearly have known the details of any program so when they later got caught while at another team they either weren't following their previous program to the letter or had been introduced to another doctor's masterplan. Maybe they just got careless in their desperation to over achieve in their new roles as team leaders (Heras, Hamilton, Landis). As I said, whatever the reason, I don't know the answers. I just can't be bothered with all of the hypocrisy that slams some while willingly turning a blind eye to others.

I enjoyed AC's win today, regrardless of who his Director is - I think he's a great cyclist and hope he does well for years to come, with Astana or with another team. Likewise I look forward to the temperamental Ricco jousting with him again and hope there are a few others capable of challenging them for the sake of the sport. The rest of the debate on doping is so poisonous it is capable of sucking the soul out of life itself. I don't condone it, but nor do I have the energy, the time or the knowledge to get embroilled in the never-ending argument surrounding it. Tonight has shown me just how easy that can be . . .