Tire width on a CT1?

Michael Press

In article
<3f27a6f3-27ff-4774-9242-9687cef84392@m73g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
bookieb <tsgtesting@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> On May 28, 1:34 pm, "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com"
> <pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
> > On May 27, 10:25 pm, C. Ballou <N...@Chance.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I have a Colnago CT1 I am set to use as a travel bike. I want to go to
> > > Europe with it, but some of the tours I am looking at have roads that
> > > apparently aren't that good. It has been suggested that I use a bike
> > > with wider tires, like a hybrid. I'd rather not.
> > > Question: Does anyone know how wide a tire I can safely put on my
> > > bike? The rims are Mavic Open 4's. I run 23's now. Can I go 28 or more
> > > for the trip?
> > > Thanks.
> >
> > Only way to really tell is go to your favorite bike shop, make an
> > 'appointment' to test tire width at THEIR convenience, take along a
> > sixer of the guy's favorite and put some tires on the wheels to see.
> > If 28c work, buy them. Try a Conti gatorskin 28 for starters.
>
> Just ot add to what Peter wrote, the Gatorskin in a 28 is not only
> wider than a "racing" 23, but the casing is tougher than most too, so
> for poor roads, it gives both more cushioning and better resistance to
> damage. If the 28 won't fit, have a look at the 25.
>
> I run the Gatorskin in a 25 year round on my commuting/winter
> training/"get around" bike - tough casing, reasonable cut/puncture
> protection, a bit of extra cushioning, but not so heavy as to be
> noticeable.
>
> I weigh 90kg, so I'm no lightweight, but I can run the 25 at 90psi
> (which gives a lot more comfort on a bad surface) without too much
> risk of pinch flats.
> By contrast, I need to keep the 23c Conti GP4000s tires that I use on
> my racing bike above 105psi to prevent pinch flats.
>
> Purely subjectively, it feels like to 23c 4000s has less drag when
> coasting than the 25c Gatorskin on the same bike, but some of that is
> probably perception and expectation on my part, rather than anything
> concrete.
> I also think the grip from the 4000s is marginally better (back end
> doesn't slip around when sprinting), but bar that I wouldn't be too
> upset to do all my riding on the 25 Gatorskin.
>
> For me and the riding I do, it's a good compromise - heavy enough to
> take the abuse of moderately bad surfaces, wide enough to be
> comfortable, light enough not to deaden the feel of the bike. If the
> surfaces were worse again, I'd be on the 28c.

I find that it is possible to discern relatively small
differences in rolling resistance, and the your perception
is meaningful. That we _can_ discern the difference does
not mean that the marginal power dissipated is meaningful
for any riding but competitive riding.

Nevertheless, I optimize for low rolling resistance and
take my chances.

--
Michael Press

jim beam

Derk wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>
>> you're not under the impression that those materials are more durable i
>> hope - for fatigue, cfrp is much more resistant than either.
> Let me refrase that, hoping I can make my point of view any clearer:
> The CT1 is a great frame in my opinion. It's a pure-bred race frame.
> I compare it to a Ferrari. Would you ever consider taking a Ferrari off-road
> to participate in a rally cross? There are different kinds of cars that
> are more suitable for that. That doesn't take away that a Ferrari is a
> unique and great car.
>
> Do you understand what I mean?
>
> Derk


sure, but that's not a materials thing, it's a dimensions thing.

regarding your other comment about repairs, you're probably better off
re-gluing a socket on your carbon frame with commercial epoxy yourself
than you are trusting your ti frame to the local welder. or even steel
frame in many cases.

Ben C

On 2008-05-29, jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
> Derk wrote:
>> jim beam wrote:
>>
>>> you're not under the impression that those materials are more durable i
>>> hope - for fatigue, cfrp is much more resistant than either.
>> Let me refrase that, hoping I can make my point of view any clearer:
>> The CT1 is a great frame in my opinion. It's a pure-bred race frame.
>> I compare it to a Ferrari. Would you ever consider taking a Ferrari off-road
>> to participate in a rally cross? There are different kinds of cars that
>> are more suitable for that. That doesn't take away that a Ferrari is a
>> unique and great car.
>>
>> Do you understand what I mean?
>>
>> Derk
>
>
> sure, but that's not a materials thing, it's a dimensions thing.
>
> regarding your other comment about repairs, you're probably better off
> re-gluing a socket on your carbon frame with commercial epoxy yourself
> than you are trusting your ti frame to the local welder. or even steel
> frame in many cases.

Speaking of that, how is that local welders can even attempt to weld
steel frames? Isn't the reason most of them are brazed together in the
first place because the tubes are too thin to survive the heat of
welding?

Reynolds make a tube called 631 which is made of air hardened steel and
can be welded carefully, but most aren't like that.

Lou Holtman

"Ben C" <spamspam@spam.eggs> wrote in message
news:slrng3sot1.tqh.spamspam@bowser.marioworld...
> On 2008-05-29, jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
>> Derk wrote:
>>> jim beam wrote:
>>>
>>>> you're not under the impression that those materials are more durable i
>>>> hope - for fatigue, cfrp is much more resistant than either.
>>> Let me refrase that, hoping I can make my point of view any clearer:
>>> The CT1 is a great frame in my opinion. It's a pure-bred race frame.
>>> I compare it to a Ferrari. Would you ever consider taking a Ferrari
>>> off-road
>>> to participate in a rally cross? There are different kinds of cars that
>>> are more suitable for that. That doesn't take away that a Ferrari is a
>>> unique and great car.
>>>
>>> Do you understand what I mean?
>>>
>>> Derk
>>
>>
>> sure, but that's not a materials thing, it's a dimensions thing.
>>
>> regarding your other comment about repairs, you're probably better off
>> re-gluing a socket on your carbon frame with commercial epoxy yourself
>> than you are trusting your ti frame to the local welder. or even steel
>> frame in many cases.
>
> Speaking of that, how is that local welders can even attempt to weld
> steel frames? Isn't the reason most of them are brazed together in the
> first place because the tubes are too thin to survive the heat of
> welding?
>
> Reynolds make a tube called 631 which is made of air hardened steel and
> can be welded carefully, but most aren't like that.

High end modern steel frames are all welded.

Lou

Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com

On May 29, 2:04*am, Ben C <spams...@spam.eggs> wrote:
> On 2008-05-29, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Derk wrote:
> >> jim beam wrote:
>
> >>> you're not under the impression that those materials are more durable i
> >>> hope - for fatigue, cfrp is much more resistant than either.
> >> Let me refrase that, hoping I can make my point of view any clearer:
> >> The CT1 is a great frame in my opinion. *It's a pure-bred race frame.
> >> I compare it to a Ferrari. Would you ever consider taking a Ferrari off-road
> >> to participate in a *rally cross? There are different kinds of cars that
> >> are more suitable for that. That doesn't take away that a Ferrari is a
> >> unique and great car.
>
> >> Do you understand what I mean?
>
> >> Derk
>
> > sure, but that's not a materials thing, it's a dimensions thing.
>
> > regarding your other comment about repairs, you're probably better off
> > re-gluing a socket on your carbon frame with commercial epoxy yourself
> > than you are trusting your ti frame to the local welder. *or even steel
> > frame in many cases.
>
> Speaking of that, how is that local welders can even attempt to weld
> steel frames? Isn't the reason most of them are brazed together in the
> first place because the tubes are too thin to survive the heat of
> welding?
>
> Reynolds make a tube called 631 which is made of air hardened steel and
> can be welded carefully, but most aren't like that.

Actually, these days most are. Reynolds, TrueTemper, Deda, Columbus
all use 'air hardened' steels and all are tih welded, not brazed,
together.

jim beam

Lou Holtman wrote:
> "Ben C" <spamspam@spam.eggs> wrote in message
> news:slrng3sot1.tqh.spamspam@bowser.marioworld...
>> On 2008-05-29, jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>> Derk wrote:
>>>> jim beam wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> you're not under the impression that those materials are more durable i
>>>>> hope - for fatigue, cfrp is much more resistant than either.
>>>> Let me refrase that, hoping I can make my point of view any clearer:
>>>> The CT1 is a great frame in my opinion. It's a pure-bred race frame.
>>>> I compare it to a Ferrari. Would you ever consider taking a Ferrari
>>>> off-road
>>>> to participate in a rally cross? There are different kinds of cars that
>>>> are more suitable for that. That doesn't take away that a Ferrari is a
>>>> unique and great car.
>>>>
>>>> Do you understand what I mean?
>>>>
>>>> Derk
>>>
>>> sure, but that's not a materials thing, it's a dimensions thing.
>>>
>>> regarding your other comment about repairs, you're probably better off
>>> re-gluing a socket on your carbon frame with commercial epoxy yourself
>>> than you are trusting your ti frame to the local welder. or even steel
>>> frame in many cases.
>> Speaking of that, how is that local welders can even attempt to weld
>> steel frames? Isn't the reason most of them are brazed together in the
>> first place because the tubes are too thin to survive the heat of
>> welding?
>>
>> Reynolds make a tube called 631 which is made of air hardened steel and
>> can be welded carefully, but most aren't like that.
>
> High end modern steel frames are all welded.
>
> Lou
>
>

not all, but a lot of the mass produced ones are. and they're tig
welded at their specially thickened ends.

repair of such a frame is non-trivial. even if you happen to find a
suitably skilled tig welder out in the wilderness, you're then faced
with the problem of repairing a crack. ideally, this means removing the
affected material and replacing it. that means sending out for new
tube. any temporary patch is just that - temporary. re-welding a crack
closed never lasts.

the truth is, you /can/ "field repair" a simple socketing problem with a
carbon frame. for anything else, fed-ex is pretty much the only
reliable solution.

jim beam

Ben C wrote:
> On 2008-05-29, jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
>> Derk wrote:
>>> jim beam wrote:
>>>
>>>> you're not under the impression that those materials are more durable i
>>>> hope - for fatigue, cfrp is much more resistant than either.
>>> Let me refrase that, hoping I can make my point of view any clearer:
>>> The CT1 is a great frame in my opinion. It's a pure-bred race frame.
>>> I compare it to a Ferrari. Would you ever consider taking a Ferrari off-road
>>> to participate in a rally cross? There are different kinds of cars that
>>> are more suitable for that. That doesn't take away that a Ferrari is a
>>> unique and great car.
>>>
>>> Do you understand what I mean?
>>>
>>> Derk
>>
>> sure, but that's not a materials thing, it's a dimensions thing.
>>
>> regarding your other comment about repairs, you're probably better off
>> re-gluing a socket on your carbon frame with commercial epoxy yourself
>> than you are trusting your ti frame to the local welder. or even steel
>> frame in many cases.
>
> Speaking of that, how is that local welders can even attempt to weld
> steel frames? Isn't the reason most of them are brazed together in the
> first place because the tubes are too thin to survive the heat of
> welding?
>
> Reynolds make a tube called 631 which is made of air hardened steel and
> can be welded carefully, but most aren't like that.

most modern tube is now suitable for tig welding. you can still braze
it if you choose to of course, but tig survival is in its nature.

jim beam

jim beam wrote:
> Lou Holtman wrote:
>> "Ben C" <spamspam@spam.eggs> wrote in message
>> news:slrng3sot1.tqh.spamspam@bowser.marioworld...
>>> On 2008-05-29, jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>>> Derk wrote:
>>>>> jim beam wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> you're not under the impression that those materials are more
>>>>>> durable i
>>>>>> hope - for fatigue, cfrp is much more resistant than either.
>>>>> Let me refrase that, hoping I can make my point of view any clearer:
>>>>> The CT1 is a great frame in my opinion. It's a pure-bred race frame.
>>>>> I compare it to a Ferrari. Would you ever consider taking a Ferrari
>>>>> off-road
>>>>> to participate in a rally cross? There are different kinds of cars
>>>>> that
>>>>> are more suitable for that. That doesn't take away that a Ferrari is a
>>>>> unique and great car.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you understand what I mean?
>>>>>
>>>>> Derk
>>>>
>>>> sure, but that's not a materials thing, it's a dimensions thing.
>>>>
>>>> regarding your other comment about repairs, you're probably better off
>>>> re-gluing a socket on your carbon frame with commercial epoxy yourself
>>>> than you are trusting your ti frame to the local welder. or even steel
>>>> frame in many cases.
>>> Speaking of that, how is that local welders can even attempt to weld
>>> steel frames? Isn't the reason most of them are brazed together in the
>>> first place because the tubes are too thin to survive the heat of
>>> welding?
>>>
>>> Reynolds make a tube called 631 which is made of air hardened steel and
>>> can be welded carefully, but most aren't like that.
>>
>> High end modern steel frames are all welded.
>>
>> Lou
>>
>
> not all, but a lot of the mass produced ones are. and they're tig
> welded at their specially thickened ends.
>
> repair of such a frame is non-trivial. even if you happen to find a
> suitably skilled tig welder out in the wilderness, you're then faced
> with the problem of repairing a crack. ideally, this means removing the
> affected material and replacing it. that means sending out for new
> tube. any temporary patch is just that - temporary. re-welding a crack
> closed never lasts.
>
> the truth is, you /can/ "field repair" a simple socketing problem with a
> carbon frame. for anything else, fed-ex is pretty much the only
> reliable solution.

for /all/ modern frame materials.

Ben C

On 2008-05-29, jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
> Ben C wrote:
[...]
>> Speaking of that, how is that local welders can even attempt to weld
>> steel frames? Isn't the reason most of them are brazed together in the
>> first place because the tubes are too thin to survive the heat of
>> welding?
>>
>> Reynolds make a tube called 631 which is made of air hardened steel and
>> can be welded carefully, but most aren't like that.
>
> most modern tube is now suitable for tig welding. you can still braze
> it if you choose to of course, but tig survival is in its nature.

First thanks everyone for the info-- it seems I'm a bit out of date
regarding what's brazed and what's welded these days.

But even so, a frame tube is thicker at the end and then Tigged,
presumably, in a jig. You need at least three hands for Tig welding
without a jig, and the welds I've seen on 631 bikes are very neat.

So if you had say a chainstay that was broken in the middle I doubt
you'd have much success just trying to buzz it back together again.

(Muzi will now post photos of him successfully doing just that to
a customer's bike...)

Michael Press

In article <1212055067.631566@news-ext.oce.nl>,
"Lou Holtman" <lholremovethis@oce.nl> wrote:

> "Ben C" <spamspam@spam.eggs> wrote in message
> news:slrng3sot1.tqh.spamspam@bowser.marioworld...
> > On 2008-05-29, jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
> >> Derk wrote:
> >>> jim beam wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> you're not under the impression that those materials are more durable i
> >>>> hope - for fatigue, cfrp is much more resistant than either.
> >>> Let me refrase that, hoping I can make my point of view any clearer:
> >>> The CT1 is a great frame in my opinion. It's a pure-bred race frame.
> >>> I compare it to a Ferrari. Would you ever consider taking a Ferrari
> >>> off-road
> >>> to participate in a rally cross? There are different kinds of cars that
> >>> are more suitable for that. That doesn't take away that a Ferrari is a
> >>> unique and great car.
> >>>
> >>> Do you understand what I mean?
> >>>
> >>> Derk
> >>
> >>
> >> sure, but that's not a materials thing, it's a dimensions thing.
> >>
> >> regarding your other comment about repairs, you're probably better off
> >> re-gluing a socket on your carbon frame with commercial epoxy yourself
> >> than you are trusting your ti frame to the local welder. or even steel
> >> frame in many cases.
> >
> > Speaking of that, how is that local welders can even attempt to weld
> > steel frames? Isn't the reason most of them are brazed together in the
> > first place because the tubes are too thin to survive the heat of
> > welding?
> >
> > Reynolds make a tube called 631 which is made of air hardened steel and
> > can be welded carefully, but most aren't like that.
>
> High end modern steel frames are all welded.

.... in an inert gas atmosphere. A traditional open air
weld cannot make a strong joint because the steel
of the tube is oxidized to such a degree as to
render it incapable of carrying the loads the frame
is intended for.

--
Michael Press

A Muzi

>>>> jim beam wrote:
>>>>> you're not under the impression that those materials are more durable i
>>>>> hope - for fatigue, cfrp is much more resistant than either.
>>>> Let me refrase that, hoping I can make my point of view any clearer:

>>> Derk wrote:
>>>> The CT1 is a great frame in my opinion. It's a pure-bred race frame.
>>>> I compare it to a Ferrari. Would you ever consider taking a Ferrari
>>>> off-road
>>>> to participate in a rally cross? There are different kinds of cars that
>>>> are more suitable for that. That doesn't take away that a Ferrari is a
>>>> unique and great car.
>>>> Do you understand what I mean?

>> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>> sure, but that's not a materials thing, it's a dimensions thing.
>>> regarding your other comment about repairs, you're probably better off
>>> re-gluing a socket on your carbon frame with commercial epoxy yourself
>>> than you are trusting your ti frame to the local welder. or even steel
>>> frame in many cases.

> "Ben C" <spamspam@spam.eggs> wrote
>> Speaking of that, how is that local welders can even attempt to weld
>> steel frames? Isn't the reason most of them are brazed together in the
>> first place because the tubes are too thin to survive the heat of
>> welding?
>> Reynolds make a tube called 631 which is made of air hardened steel and
>> can be welded carefully, but most aren't like that.

Lou Holtman wrote:
> High end modern steel frames are all welded.

How does Waterford weld their lugged models? or Nagasawa? Or Panasonic?
Plenty of premium silver or brass brazed (lug and fillet) modern bikes ,
plus several top flight ateliers such as Jonny Cycles.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

Lou Holtman

A Muzi wrote:
>>>>> jim beam wrote:
>>>>>> you're not under the impression that those materials are more
>>>>>> durable i
>>>>>> hope - for fatigue, cfrp is much more resistant than either.
>>>>> Let me refrase that, hoping I can make my point of view any clearer:
>
>>>> Derk wrote:
>>>>> The CT1 is a great frame in my opinion. It's a pure-bred race frame.
>>>>> I compare it to a Ferrari. Would you ever consider taking a Ferrari
>>>>> off-road
>>>>> to participate in a rally cross? There are different kinds of cars
>>>>> that
>>>>> are more suitable for that. That doesn't take away that a Ferrari is a
>>>>> unique and great car.
>>>>> Do you understand what I mean?
>
>>> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>>> sure, but that's not a materials thing, it's a dimensions thing.
>>>> regarding your other comment about repairs, you're probably better off
>>>> re-gluing a socket on your carbon frame with commercial epoxy yourself
>>>> than you are trusting your ti frame to the local welder. or even steel
>>>> frame in many cases.
>
>> "Ben C" <spamspam@spam.eggs> wrote
>>> Speaking of that, how is that local welders can even attempt to weld
>>> steel frames? Isn't the reason most of them are brazed together in the
>>> first place because the tubes are too thin to survive the heat of
>>> welding?
>>> Reynolds make a tube called 631 which is made of air hardened steel and
>>> can be welded carefully, but most aren't like that.
>
> Lou Holtman wrote:
>> High end modern steel frames are all welded.
>
> How does Waterford weld their lugged models? or Nagasawa? Or Panasonic?
> Plenty of premium silver or brass brazed (lug and fillet) modern bikes ,
> plus several top flight ateliers such as Jonny Cycles.


Well, we have a different definition of 'high end' and 'modern' then.
It's OK with me ;-)


Lou

Ben C

On 2008-05-29, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net> wrote:
> In article <1212055067.631566@news-ext.oce.nl>,
> "Lou Holtman" <lholremovethis@oce.nl> wrote:
[...]
>> High end modern steel frames are all welded.
>
> ... in an inert gas atmosphere.

Isn't that the "ig" in Tig?

> A traditional open air
> weld cannot make a strong joint because the steel
> of the tube is oxidized to such a degree as to
> render it incapable of carrying the loads the frame
> is intended for.

Not sure what you mean by a traditional open air weld. For all welding
oxidation is a potential problem.

You either cover everything in flux, or you spray inert gas in TIG or
MIG welding (TIG stands for Tungsten [electrode] Inert Gas, MIG is metal
electrode, i.e. a sacrificial electrode of the same metal as the thing
you're welding), or you use oxy-acetylene where I think the idea is you
get the oxygen mixture just right that it all burns up in the flame.
Something like that.

Flux is nasty messy stuff-- OK if you're arc-welding some railings but
not up to the fine jewelry standards expected for bikes.

For MIG and TIG the inert gas comes out of a cylinder and is sprayed
around the hot electrode as you weld. The gas is usually Argon or CO2
(you use different gasses for different materials for some subtle
reasons, I think Argon for steel, CO2 for Aluminium).

So you can TIG weld in the open air, although outdoors on windy days is
not preferred.

TIG tends to make a neater weld than MIG. TIG, MIG and oxy-acetylene can
all be used for fairly delicate work (e.g. plate or tubing only 1mm
thick).

--
Article may not contain actual facts

Ben C

On 2008-05-29, Ben C <spamspam@spam.eggs> wrote:
[...]
> Not sure what you mean by a traditional open air weld. For all welding
> oxidation is a potential problem.
>
> You either cover everything in flux, or you spray inert gas in TIG or
> MIG welding (TIG stands for Tungsten [electrode] Inert Gas, MIG is metal
> electrode, i.e. a sacrificial electrode of the same metal as the thing
> you're welding), or you use oxy-acetylene where I think the idea is you
> get the oxygen mixture just right that it all burns up in the flame.
> Something like that.
>
> Flux is nasty messy stuff-- OK if you're arc-welding some railings but
> not up to the fine jewelry standards expected for bikes.
>
> For MIG and TIG the inert gas comes out of a cylinder and is sprayed
> around the hot electrode as you weld. The gas is usually Argon or CO2
> (you use different gasses for different materials for some subtle
> reasons, I think Argon for steel, CO2 for Aluminium).
>
> So you can TIG weld in the open air, although outdoors on windy days is
> not preferred.
>
> TIG tends to make a neater weld than MIG. TIG, MIG and oxy-acetylene can
> all be used for fairly delicate work (e.g. plate or tubing only 1mm
> thick).

Here's a link that explains it quite well:
http://www.tech.plym.ac.uk/sme/strc201/weld1.htm

You use CO2 for mild steel, but Argon for Aluminium. Knowing why would
be more interesting. Perhaps CO2's just cheaper and works on mild steel.

For oxy-acetylene the outer part of the flame is what protects the work
from oxidizing. That's why the Wikipedia writer says you have to be sure
to keep the end of the filler rod in the flame. Very clever.