How to touch wheels and not fall off?

John Forrest Tomlinson

On Wed, 28 May 2008 22:21:22 -0700 (PDT), Bret <bret.wade@gmail.com>
wrote:

> He was riding beautiful black Serottas at the time. I would have liked to
>own one.

You know what they say....once you go black....

mtb Dad

On May 29, 12:06*am, Howard Kveck <YOURhow...@h-SHOESbomb.com> wrote:
> In article <82bb2bcf-6413-459a-9bbc-dc8030d7a...@w1g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
> *"Paul G." <carb...@egine.com> wrote:
>
> > Stop trying to bullshit me. There is a science to this. If you can
> > keep your front wheel under your center of gravity you can stay
> > upright. If someone's wheel barely touches yours, sure, you have a
> > chance to do that, but if they nudge your front wheel even an inch to
> > the side your bike will turn sharply and gravity will take over.
>
> * *I think the best way to describe that action is to say the wheel touch/movement is
> an exagerated version of countersteering. To make a left turn, there's a tiny
> steering input to the right to initiate the lean to the left. So if your front wheel
> is hit by another wheel from the left, your front wheel turns right which makes the
> bike lean and turn to the left (which is, of course, into the other bike).I think
> it's possible to fight that but it is pretty hard to do. Not something you'd be able
> to think through - it'd have to be a reaction.
>
> --
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * tanx,
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Howard
>
> * * * * * * * * * * * * Whatever happened to
> * * * * * * * * * * * * Leon Trotsky?
> * * * * * * * * * * * * He got an icepick
> * * * * * * * * * * * * That made his ears burn.
>
> * * * * * * * * * * *remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

One thing not mentioned so far is leaning your bike away from the
offending wheel, sorta pushing the bars sideways. It's one way to set
up a turn without pre-steer. Only works up to point; the run-from-the-
other-side--of-the-road touch is still going to take you down. I use
this also when people approach my bars from the side in groups too.
It also presents your shoulder instead of the bars as the point of
contact, protecting your steering.

I've also seen, once, a situation where a very good bike handler (Eon
D'Ornellas in 80's and 90's Ontario racing), in response to an
impending touch, pull his bike back sort of like what happens when a
novice stands on a hill and the bike shoots back, then shoot the bike
forward again on the other side, and use the momentum to attack up the
other side. I thought he was going down for sure and he turned it
into an attack. 'Didn't collect my wits until he was long gone.

Paul G.

On May 29, 12:06 am, Howard Kveck <YOURhow...@h-SHOESbomb.com> wrote:
> In article <82bb2bcf-6413-459a-9bbc-dc8030d7a...@w1g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
> "Paul G." <carb...@egine.com> wrote:
>
> > Stop trying to bullshit me. There is a science to this. If you can
> > keep your front wheel under your center of gravity you can stay
> > upright. If someone's wheel barely touches yours, sure, you have a
> > chance to do that, but if they nudge your front wheel even an inch to
> > the side your bike will turn sharply and gravity will take over.
>
> I think the best way to describe that action is to say the wheel touch/movement is
> an exagerated version of countersteering. To make a left turn, there's a tiny
> steering input to the right to initiate the lean to the left. So if your front wheel
> is hit by another wheel from the left, your front wheel turns right which makes the
> bike lean and turn to the left (which is, of course, into the other bike). I think
> it's possible to fight that but it is pretty hard to do. Not something you'd be able
> to think through - it'd have to be a reaction.

Yes, that is what happens, except you can't turn to the left because
that guy's rear wheel is in the way. So your bike goes right, your
center of mass is then to the left of your wheels, and you start to
fall to the left. You TRY to turn left to get your front wheel back
under you, but your front wheel is pressed against that rear wheel,
which may even continue to push your front wheel farther to the
right.

If you can't get that front wheel back under you, you're gonna fall.
Unless you have Wiley Coyote anti-gravity skills:
http://www.oilcrash.com/images/coyote.jpg

Now, if you have enough time and the room to start a right turn, so
that you are moving over along with the guy that is cutting in front
of you, you can survive. But as we all know, there ain't much space or
time to react in a peloton.
-Paul

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com

On May 29, 7:09*pm, "Paul G." <carb...@egine.com> wrote:
> On May 29, 12:06 am, Howard Kveck <YOURhow...@h-SHOESbomb.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > In article <82bb2bcf-6413-459a-9bbc-dc8030d7a...@w1g2000prd.googlegroups..com>,
> > *"Paul G." <carb...@egine.com> wrote:
>
> > > Stop trying to bullshit me. There is a science to this. If you can
> > > keep your front wheel under your center of gravity you can stay
> > > upright. If someone's wheel barely touches yours, sure, you have a
> > > chance to do that, but if they nudge your front wheel even an inch to
> > > the side your bike will turn sharply and gravity will take over.
>
> > * *I think the best way to describe that action is to say the wheel touch/movement is
> > an exagerated version of countersteering. To make a left turn, there's atiny
> > steering input to the right to initiate the lean to the left. So if yourfront wheel
> > is hit by another wheel from the left, your front wheel turns right which makes the
> > bike lean and turn to the left (which is, of course, into the other bike). I think
> > it's possible to fight that but it is pretty hard to do. Not something you'd be able
> > to think through - it'd have to be a reaction.
>
> Yes, that is what happens, except you can't turn to the left because
> that guy's rear wheel is in the way. So your bike goes right, your
> center of mass is then to the left of your wheels, and you start to
> fall to the left. You TRY to turn left to get your front wheel back
> under you, but your front wheel is pressed against that rear wheel,
> which may even continue to push your front wheel farther to the
> right.
>
> If you can't get that front wheel back under you, you're gonna fall.
> Unless you have Wiley Coyote anti-gravity skills:http://www.oilcrash.com/images/coyote.jpg
>
> Now, if you have enough time and the room to start a right turn, so
> that you are moving over along with the guy that is cutting in front
> of you, you can survive. But as we all know, there ain't much space or
> time to react in a peloton.
> -Paul

That's why it helps to stand up. One, it moves the bike back a bit so
maybe you can disengage, and two, it lets you move/fall your weight to
the side, while keeping the bike upright, so the overlap pressure
doesn't get worse while you are waiting for either the wheel to move,
the "bounce" to get going the other way, or your slight braking to
slow you up.

Joseph

Paul G.

On May 29, 8:02 am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In article
> <ba0f5ebb-4469-40cd-a135-274842649...@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
>
> "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com" <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On May 29, 5:58 am, Bret <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On May 28, 6:04 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> > > > In article
> > > > <e3eea9a7-b23a-4c6f-90c0-4d6aade85...@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
>
> > > > Bret <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > I once explained to a fellow ice hockey fan why I never
> > > > played competitive sports of any kind. He said "You were
> > > > right to stay out of them." These kinds of incidents with
> > > > me involved would end with blood spilled or the other
> > > > party punked out. I do not back off of interactions with
> > > > potential for violence, and therefore conduct my affairs
> > > > in such a way that they do not arise. He would have remembered me.
>
> Michael, I admire your good judgment in not putting your own
> psychological limitations in harm's way, but have you considered maybe a
> bit of yoga for that?
>
>
>
> > > It wasn't as hostile a situation as you seem to think. I griped a
> > > little, he got a bit snippy. I saved my anger for the folks that tried
> > > to knock me down intentionally, or were pretending to.
>
> > > One guy body-slammed me just before our break group started to sprint.
> > > I was the best sprinter in the break and he was trying to help a
> > > teammate win. He pretended it was an accident. He also locked up his
> > > brakes in front of me once in another race.
>
> > > I had a whole team mad at me about something I posted here on rbr. I
> > > had made what I thought was a humorous comparison between their team
> > > race and Milan San Remo and they didn't take it well. A few of them
> > > just gave me a piece of their mind, but one of them started chopping
> > > me in races. He once went out of his way to keep me from getting
> > > shelter in a crosswind and ended up pushing himself off the road while
> > > trying to ward me off.
>
> > > The only guy I ever really held a grudge against tried to use me to
> > > knock somebody else down. I was riding in between them and he put his
> > > hand on my bars and shoved them into the other guy's bars. Neither of
> > > us went down but the target broke a spoke on my pedal. The flake was a
> > > guy named Walter that used to wrench for the 7-Eleven women's team. He
> > > didn't have a good reason to be mad at the other guy, much less me.
>
> > > Bret
>
> > I hope the anger you saved for those punks was well administered.
> > People should not be allowed to get away with shit like that.
>
> > Joseph
>
> Hell, I'm beginning to understand why California (is that right?) needs
> the Sausalito Starbucks. If I saw anyone pulling that sort of deliberate
> crap in a race, I would be shocked, and I would report them to the
> commis' just for a bonus.
>
> I really have to wonder about deliberately harmful behavior in
> beer-league bike racing. It speaks to a certain lack of proportion.

It's been a long time, but I never observed anything like that when I
was racing. It would not have been tolerated as it would have been a
threat to the rest of us. I have wondered why they don't have
kamakazi attacks in big races like the TDF where big money is on the
line. "Make it look like an accident."
-Paul

Paul G.

On May 29, 10:00 am, mtb Dad <listerfar...@telus.net> wrote:
> I've also seen, once, a situation where a very good bike handler (Eon
> D'Ornellas in 80's and 90's Ontario racing), in response to an
> impending touch, pull his bike back sort of like what happens when a
> novice stands on a hill and the bike shoots back, then shoot the bike
> forward again on the other side, and use the momentum to attack up the
> other side.

That would work. Good point.
-Paul

Bret

On May 29, 12:54*am, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
<joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On May 29, 5:58*am, Bret <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On May 28, 6:04*pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> > > In article
> > > <e3eea9a7-b23a-4c6f-90c0-4d6aade85...@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
>
> > > *Bret <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > On May 28, 1:50*am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > As someone who has spent a relatively large amount of time with my
> > > > > wheels in weird places and a relatively small amount of time lyingon
> > > > > the ground, bleeding, I'd suggest that the best advice is not to panic.
>
> > > > Long ago on the Tuesday evening training race (Bustop ride) from
> > > > Boulder, I was in a train moving forward just before the final sprint.
> > > > Someone tried to switch abruptly to the wheel I was on and we bounced
> > > > off each other for a while. Neither of us crashed but we both got
> > > > knocked out of the sprint. I later found out that his front wheel had
> > > > ripped an adjustment screw out of my rear derailleur. It was Scott
> > > > Berryman who was one of the top match sprinters in the country. I'm
> > > > guessing that he weighed about 220 lbs at the time. We're rolling
> > > > along together and I'm griping at him about switching over to the
> > > > wheel like that without looking to see if it's occupied. His answer
> > > > was that I should ride track and then I wouldn't get so excited when
> > > > things like that happened. Then he tried to sell me a track bike. I
> > > > remember thinking that I didn't need to get used to that. Over twenty
> > > > years later I ran into him on a training ride. He's the same
> > > > gregarious fellow and we had an interesting conversation. I mentioned
> > > > the Bustop incident and found he has no recollection at all.
>
> > > > Anyway, I think Potter should build a velodrome in his backyard. If
> > > > you build it they will come.
>
> > > I once explained to a fellow ice hockey fan why I never
> > > played competitive sports of any kind. He said "You were
> > > right to stay out of them." These kinds of incidents with
> > > me involved would end with blood spilled or the other
> > > party punked out. I do not back off of interactions with
> > > potential for violence, and therefore conduct my affairs
> > > in such a way that they do not arise. He would have remembered me.
>
> > It wasn't as hostile a situation as you seem to think. I griped a
> > little, he got a bit snippy. I saved my anger for the folks that tried
> > to knock me down intentionally, or were pretending to.
>
> > One guy body-slammed me just before our break group started to sprint.
> > I was the best sprinter in the break and he was trying to help a
> > teammate win. He pretended it was an accident. He also locked up his
> > brakes in front of me once in another race.
>
> > I had a whole team mad at me about something I posted here on rbr. I
> > had made what I thought was a humorous comparison between their team
> > race and Milan San Remo and they didn't take it well. A few of them
> > just gave me a piece of their mind, but one of them started chopping
> > me in races. He once went out of his way to keep me from getting
> > shelter in a crosswind and ended up pushing himself off the road while
> > trying *to ward me off.
>
> > The only guy I ever really held a grudge against tried to use me to
> > knock somebody else down. I was riding in between them and he put his
> > hand on my bars and shoved them into the other guy's bars. Neither of
> > us went down but the target broke a spoke on my pedal. The flake was a
> > guy named Walter that used to wrench for the 7-Eleven women's team. He
> > didn't have a good reason to be mad at the other guy, much less me.
>
> > Bret
>
> I hope the anger you saved for those punks was well administered.
> People should not be allowed to get away with shit like that.
>
> Joseph

I didn't even speak to any of them except for the last incident. The
sport is self policing and most people don't want the reputation of
being dangerous. For example, the guy who was fighting to keep me in
the cross wind was immediately chewed out by a teammate.

Bret

Bret

On May 29, 9:02*am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In article
> <ba0f5ebb-4469-40cd-a135-274842649...@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
>
> *"joseph.santanie...@gmail.com" <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On May 29, 5:58*am, Bret <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On May 28, 6:04*pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> > > > In article
> > > > <e3eea9a7-b23a-4c6f-90c0-4d6aade85...@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
>
> > > > *Bret <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > I once explained to a fellow ice hockey fan why I never
> > > > played competitive sports of any kind. He said "You were
> > > > right to stay out of them." These kinds of incidents with
> > > > me involved would end with blood spilled or the other
> > > > party punked out. I do not back off of interactions with
> > > > potential for violence, and therefore conduct my affairs
> > > > in such a way that they do not arise. He would have remembered me.
>
> Michael, I admire your good judgment in not putting your own
> psychological limitations in harm's way, but have you considered maybe a
> bit of yoga for that?
>
>
>
> > > It wasn't as hostile a situation as you seem to think. I griped a
> > > little, he got a bit snippy. I saved my anger for the folks that tried
> > > to knock me down intentionally, or were pretending to.
>
> > > One guy body-slammed me just before our break group started to sprint.
> > > I was the best sprinter in the break and he was trying to help a
> > > teammate win. He pretended it was an accident. He also locked up his
> > > brakes in front of me once in another race.
>
> > > I had a whole team mad at me about something I posted here on rbr. I
> > > had made what I thought was a humorous comparison between their team
> > > race and Milan San Remo and they didn't take it well. A few of them
> > > just gave me a piece of their mind, but one of them started chopping
> > > me in races. He once went out of his way to keep me from getting
> > > shelter in a crosswind and ended up pushing himself off the road while
> > > trying *to ward me off.
>
> > > The only guy I ever really held a grudge against tried to use me to
> > > knock somebody else down. I was riding in between them and he put his
> > > hand on my bars and shoved them into the other guy's bars. Neither of
> > > us went down but the target broke a spoke on my pedal. The flake was a
> > > guy named Walter that used to wrench for the 7-Eleven women's team. He
> > > didn't have a good reason to be mad at the other guy, much less me.
>
> > > Bret
>
> > I hope the anger you saved for those punks was well administered.
> > People should not be allowed to get away with shit like that.
>
> > Joseph
>
> Hell, I'm beginning to understand why California (is that right?) needs
> the Sausalito Starbucks. If I saw anyone pulling that sort of deliberate
> crap in a race, I would be shocked, and I would report them to the
> commis' just for a bonus.

I think this question was directed to me? Those were isolated
incidents in Colorado over 25 years. Instead of Starbucks, it would
be the Amante coffee shop on N. Broadway.

Another one. A teammate of mine followed an attack by two teammates
from another team at the start of a criterium in Telluride. He didn't
want to work right away and refused when they demanded. One of them
started hitting him and while fending off the blows my teammate
accidently knocked the guy down and he dislocated a finger. That guy
filed a protest against my teammate which was disallowed when the
guy's teammate testified against him. The official did tell my
teammate that he really should have been working in the break.

Bret

SLAVE of THE STATE

On May 29, 12:29*am, Bret <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On May 28, 2:41*pm, SLAVE of THE STATE <gwh...@ti.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 28, 2:50*am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > My undertutored theory is that most crashes result from over-controlling
> > > rather than under-controlling, and maybe not being quite as focused
> > > about keeping it upright (target fixation is fun!) as not-crashy riders
> > > are.
>
> > Dumbass,
>
> > I crashed once from "undercontrolling," or just being "too relaxed."
> > Not as contact with anyone, but by hitting an "invisible asphalt knot"
> > coming out of a corner.
>
> > I was almost out of the corner and started to stand to respond to a
> > gap that had been allowed to form (not by me). *Right at that moment
> > "something" knocked the handlbars out of my hands, for which I had a
> > relaxed hold on. *Of course, at that point I could not steer and went
> > into the opposite curb. *It sort of hurt.
>
> > I had to go back over and look closely at the road to see the knotted
> > up section, as there was no crack and not much discoloration. *I could
> > not explain the loss of control any other way. *It was sort of like an
> > inverted crack would be if your front wheel hit it. *I was not looking
> > down, but forward to the riders and the gap at the time of control
> > loss.
>
> > My dumbass lessons were:
> > 1. wait till being all the way out of the corner before standing/
> > accelerating
> > 2. if not waiting, keep a strong hold on the handlebars unless the
> > pavement is known to be very good. *Or just keep a strong hold for
> > that sort of move in any case.
>
> > It sucked.
>
> I broke my hip doing the MTB equivalent. I took an unnatural line on a
> non-technical trail to give a hiker more space than they really needed
> and let my *hands get knocked off the bars by a rock I didn't see.

Mine was sort of weird in that my chest went down onto the bars, but I
was strangely still upright yet unable to steer. I could (did) look
forward and see the curb coming up fast. I laid it down before I got
to the curb and my back went right onto it. I had a long bruise on my
back where the curb hit it. Fortunately it was distributed enough
that I was not seriously hurt. You got it a lot worse than me.

Crashing sucks. I hate it.

Donald Munro

Bret wrote:
> The official did tell my teammate that he really should have been
> working in the break.

They must have a different set of rules in Colorado.

Michael Press

In article
<rcousine-753197.08024929052008@[74.223.185.199.nw.nuvox.net]>,
Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@gmail.com> wrote:

> In article
> <ba0f5ebb-4469-40cd-a135-274842649939@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
> "joseph.santaniello@gmail.com" <joseph.santaniello@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On May 29, 5:58*am, Bret <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On May 28, 6:04*pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > In article
> > > > <e3eea9a7-b23a-4c6f-90c0-4d6aade85...@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
> > >
> > > > *Bret <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > I once explained to a fellow ice hockey fan why I never
> > > > played competitive sports of any kind. He said "You were
> > > > right to stay out of them." These kinds of incidents with
> > > > me involved would end with blood spilled or the other
> > > > party punked out. I do not back off of interactions with
> > > > potential for violence, and therefore conduct my affairs
> > > > in such a way that they do not arise. He would have remembered me.
>
> Michael, I admire your good judgment in not putting your own
> psychological limitations in harm's way, but have you considered maybe a
> bit of yoga for that?

No. I am more like the family in Kenneth Patchen's novel
Sleepers Awake, who were so poor that they chopped down
the stairs to keep warm.

<http://doyoulikewords.blogspot.com/2006/02/sleepers-awake.html>

--
Michael Press

Paul G.

On May 30, 5:45 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> In article
> <1c32e8a2-467c-4d46-be7a-dac9ecdd1...@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
>
> Bret <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > I think this question was directed to me? Those were isolated
> > incidents in Colorado over 25 years. Instead of Starbucks, it would
> > be the Amante coffee shop on N. Broadway.
>
> > Another one. A teammate of mine followed an attack by two teammates
> > from another team at the start of a criterium in Telluride. He didn't
> > want to work right away and refused when they demanded. One of them
> > started hitting him and while fending off the blows my teammate
> > accidently knocked the guy down and he dislocated a finger. That guy
> > filed a protest against my teammate which was disallowed when the
> > guy's teammate testified against him. The official did tell my
> > teammate that he really should have been working in the break.
>
> Thanks. Enjoyable story. But should he have worked in the
> break? Is it not his decision how best to play his hand?

Exactly. It is kind of cool when when they work together and manage to
stay away, but they have to have some motivation. Sometimes it is "You
get the stage win, I get the GC win." It's stupid to work with two
teammates, only to have them double team you in the sprint.
-Paul

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com

On May 30, 10:11*am, Donald Munro <fat-dumb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Bret wrote:
> > The official did tell my teammate that he really should have been
> > working in the break.
>
> They must have a different set of rules in Colorado.

I'll say. Maybe the official doesn't know what the world should means.

Joseph