Re: Memorial Day (OT)

John Forrest Tomlinson

On Thu, 29 May 2008 05:34:27 -0700 (PDT), Bill C
<tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote:

>JT we agree that the system here has problems. If that was Moore's
>whole argument I'd support it wholeheartedly. It's not. The US was
>built to be a capitalist country, our founding folks were VERY
>concious of that. Profit is NOT evil,

You just don't get it. You're responding to a right-wing parody of
what Moore says.

Add "socialist medecine" to the bogeymen they play you with.

Bill C

On May 29, 8:45*am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
wrote:
> On Thu, 29 May 2008 05:34:27 -0700 (PDT), Bill C
>
> <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >JT we agree that the system here has problems. If that was Moore's
> >whole argument I'd support it wholeheartedly. It's not. The US was
> >built to be a capitalist country, our founding folks were VERY
> >concious of that. Profit is NOT evil,
>
> You just don't get it. *You're responding to a right-wing parody of
> what Moore says.
>
> Add "socialist medecine" to the bogeymen they play you with.

I said distortions and I stand by that; here's part of an evil
corporate CNN piece and the link:

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRI...sitroom.03.html

I'm Wolf Blitzer. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.

Millions of Americans are filling theaters across the country to see
Michael Moore's controversial look at the U.S. healthcare system.
"Sicko" was number nine on the top 10 box office draws this weekend.
But the movie is being criticized by some who accuse Moore of playing
loose with the facts.

Michael Moore will join us here in THE SITUATION ROOM in just a
moment. But first a "Reality Check" from our chief medical
correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): "Sicko"
throws hard punches at the United States healthcare system, and it
seems just about everyone has something to say.

(SOUNDS)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Moore was spot on.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The facts, I think, support what I believe.

GUPTA: And Moore presents a lot of facts throughout the movie. But do
they all check out? Keeping them honest, we did some digging and we
started with the biggie. The United States slipped to number 37 in the
world's healthcare systems.

It's true, 37 is the ranking, according to the World Health
Organization's latest data on 191 countries. It's based on general
health level, patient satisfaction, access and how it's paid for.
France tops the list. Italy and Spain make it into the top 10. The
United Kingdom is 18.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello!

GUPTA: Moore brings a group of patients, including 9/11 workers to
Cuba, and marvels at their free treatment and quality of care. But
hold on. That WHO list puts Cuba's healthcare system even lower than
the United States, coming in at number 39. Moore asserts that the
American healthcare system spends $7,000 per person on health, whereas
Cuba spends $25 per person.

Not true, but not too far off. The United States spends $6,096 a year
per person versus $229 a year in Cuba. And astronomically more money
doesn't mean far better outcomes. In fact, Americans live just a
little bit longer than Cubans on average. So Americans do pay more,
but the United States also ranks highest in patient satisfaction.

<<more there and other places>>
I think the last line is THE telling factor, I don't remember Moore
using that in Sicko, along with the actual cost in Cuba being more
than 9 times what Moore said it was.


It seems that there's absolutely nothing I could show you that would
get you to say anything other than Moore is 100% accurate, and
includes all aspects in painting a complete and total picture of
things he investigates so I give up.
I'll just send out for my "vast right wing conspiracy" memebership
card now.

Meesha used to work for the local Community Health Center, if you
haven't checked out that movement it's a good thing with lots of good
info, goes well with non-profit hospitals.
Bill C

Paul G.

On May 29, 5:45 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
wrote:
> On Thu, 29 May 2008 05:34:27 -0700 (PDT), Bill C
>
> <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >JT we agree that the system here has problems. If that was Moore's
> >whole argument I'd support it wholeheartedly. It's not. The US was
> >built to be a capitalist country, our founding folks were VERY
> >concious of that. Profit is NOT evil,
>
> You just don't get it. You're responding to a right-wing parody of
> what Moore says.
>
> Add "socialist medecine" to the bogeymen they play you with.

The funny thing about socialized cradle-to-grave medical care- that's
what our troops get, and it's a major factor in reenlistments. If they
leave, they lose that socialized medical care their families have been
getting.

I was truly a SLAVE OF THE STATE for 4 years, living in govt housing,
sleeping under a govt blanket, eating govt food, spending a puny govt
paycheck. I had to do what I was told, had no freedom of speech, etc.
We were supposed to be fighting communism. But wait... we WERE
communists.

-Paul

SLAVE of THE STATE

On May 28, 3:08*pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
wrote:

> I'm questioning either your integrity, your emotional balance or your
> wits. *There is a problem with one of them ...

If it is true that his perspectives are jumble of incoherency,
emotionalism, and supernatural faith in The State and The Collective,
then yes I agree with you: he is the perfect candidate to vote
democrat, since that is the archetype democrat.

William Asher

bjw@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:

> On May 28, 2:35*pm, William Asher <gcn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Donald Munro wrote:
>> > Bill C wrote:
>> >> You can hate on us out here in the rain, but we were pushed out.
>>
>> > Don't worry, with global warming the rain might stop.
>>
>> Total precipitation increases in a warmer planet. *It's a specific humid
> ity
>> thing. *Don't get me started.
>
> Yeah, but you'll get more water and we'll get less,
> so the Arizona Territory is just going to have to
> come up there and take its rightful share.
>
> On the bright side, think of the increased market
> for Assos raingear.

Great. We're going to have millions of Assos-clad, Camelbak-sporting sun-
belters coming by, filling up, and bitching about the rain. It's enough to
make me want to pipe the water to Idaho so you'll have to visit Boise.

--
Bill Asher

William Asher

Donald Munro wrote:

> William Asher wrote:
>> Why can't I do both? That would make me complicated. Chicks dig
>> complicated probably as much as they dig a shaved nutsack and I'm
>> just not ready to commit to the latter.
>
> Close your eyes and think of the flag. If it will make it any easier
> it could be arranged for Tammy Thomas to do the shaving.

Ok, I know this is a cheap shot and I shouldn't, but it was the first thing
that came to mind (so to speak), and I want people to think I am really
quick-witted:

I guess it would be good to have someone do it who had a lot of experience.

<rimshot>

--
Bill "regretting it already" Asher

John Forrest Tomlinson

On Thu, 29 May 2008 06:45:23 -0700 (PDT), Bill C
<tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote:

>On May 29, 8:45*am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
>wrote:
>> On Thu, 29 May 2008 05:34:27 -0700 (PDT), Bill C
>>
>> <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> >JT we agree that the system here has problems. If that was Moore's
>> >whole argument I'd support it wholeheartedly. It's not. The US was
>> >built to be a capitalist country, our founding folks were VERY
>> >concious of that. Profit is NOT evil,
>>
>> You just don't get it. *You're responding to a right-wing parody of
>> what Moore says.
>>
>> Add "socialist medecine" to the bogeymen they play you with.
>
>I said distortions and I stand by that; here's part of an evil
>corporate CNN piece and the link:
>
>http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRI...sitroom.03.html

Did you read what you posted. It's someone else talking about Moore
and even Gupta doesnt say Moore says Cuba has better health care than
the US -- both Gupta and Moore say that Cuba has surprisingly good
health care considering how poor the country is.

Someone saying there is something not horrendous or even good about
Cuba doesn't mean they are calling for socialized medecine or the
removal of profit motive from health care.

And by the way, I saw a follow up to that CNN piece where Moore asked
Gupta what facts he got wrong and Gupta couldnt' answer that question.
Gupta could merely say that Moore was pushing too far on one side. To
which Moore asked, again and again for what facts Moore had wrong.

Now, in truth, Moore didn't make a movie about good stuff in US health
care, so to that extent he's unbalanced. But everything or almost
everything in that movie was factually true.

And here's the kicker, which really kicked Gupta's premise that Moore
was a nut and we shouldn't really believe what he said. Moore remined
Gupta and Blitzer of the treatment CNN gave Fahreineit 9/11 when it
came out, saying it was distorted and had errors. Moore pointed out
that CNN commentators had made the same critique of that movie as of
his health care movie, and not only did they never prove his facts
wrong, but if his "bias" had won the day perhaps we wouldn't have had
the Iraq invasion.

That's the dissapointing thing you just don't get. You keep saying
peole like Moore are wrong. But their facts are right. And then you
might backtrack and say they're painting a distorted picture. Well,
considering how you feel about the Iraq war and US healthcare, you'd
be far better served listening to what they say and actually using it
as a basis for action than buying the right-wing talking points on
those issues.

You have a bizarre internal contradiction.

> It seems that there's absolutely nothing I could show you that would
>get you to say anything other than Moore is 100% accurate, and
>includes all aspects in painting a complete and total picture of
>things he investigates so I give up.

In his movies he's as close to 100% accurate as is reasonable in a
documentaries- somewhere between 90 and 100%.

No, I never said he shows all aspects of the situation. But
considering the massive forces for inaction and the inherent
conservative/corporate bias in US media, he should be applauded for
showing stuff that doesn't get enough on the air.

John Forrest Tomlinson

On Thu, 29 May 2008 06:45:23 -0700 (PDT), Bill C
<tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote:


> It seems that there's absolutely nothing I could show you that would
>get you to say anything other than Moore is 100% accurate, and
>includes all aspects in painting a complete and total picture of
>things he investigates so I give up.


One other thing. You sentences above are a classic example of easy
but lame arugment. You build straw men and then know them down. If
you want to find a factual error in Moore I'm sure it's possible. But
he researched his big three movies pretty meticuously so it's going to
be hard. So instead of you recognizing that he's mainly or
overwhelming factually correct, you turn our disagreement into an
argument about 100% accurate or not.

Lame.

And secondly, I've never heard *anyone* ever claim tat he pains a
complete and total picture of the issues. Not me, not him, not any
"liberal" I know. But that's an easy point to make - he doesn't give
a complete picture. So what. So that means you have to reject his
premise outright?

Beautiful - - that's what the biggest companies in the US healthcare
system want. Inaction. Great - that's what Bushco wants, ignorance
about the Iraq war.

> I'll just send out for my "vast right wing conspiracy" memebership
>card now.


They're surely duped you. You might not be aware of it, but you've
bought it.

John Forrest Tomlinson

On Thu, 29 May 2008 20:29:31 GMT, John Forrest Tomlinson
<usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote:

>You build straw men and then KNOCK them down.

SLAVE of THE STATE

On May 29, 2:06*am, William Asher <gcn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> SLAVE of THE STATE <gwh...@ti.com> wrote in news:2a927437-2846-4255-83fe-
> 5db137c5c...@34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
>
> <snip>
>
> > You must work for the Bush Admin, or vote democrat.
>
> Why can't I do both? *That would make me complicated. *Chicks dig
> complicated probably as much as they dig a shaved nutsack and I'm just not
> ready to commit to the latter. *

I think you can do both -- so many are. What chicks really dig is
dragging home the biggest buck (nice play on words):

http://www.forbes.com/2008/01/22/co...realestate.html

I think as I make my sacrifices in your altruistic and charitable goal
of killing off poor third peasants, the least you could do is shave
your ballsack, as a sort of goodwill gesture.

_Starving the World's Poorest_, Bogdan C. Enache
http://mises.org/story/2969

Donald Munro

SLAVE of THE STATE wrote:
> I think as I make my sacrifices in your altruistic and charitable goal of
> killing off poor third peasants, the least you could do is shave your
> ballsack, as a sort of goodwill gesture.

Just as well you didn't say small goodwill gesture.

Donald Munro

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>You build straw men and then KNOCK them down.

I'd rather knock up a strawwoman.

bjw@mambo.ucolick.org

On May 30, 1:25*am, Donald Munro <fat-dumb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> >>You build straw men and then KNOCK them down.
>
> I'd rather knock up a strawwoman.

Don't trifle with straw:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070917/
Or women:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0450345/

Ben

bjw@mambo.ucolick.org

On May 30, 1:25*am, Donald Munro <fat-dumb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> >>You build straw men and then KNOCK them down.
>
> I'd rather knock up a strawwoman.

Don't trifle with straw:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070917/
Or women:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0450345/

Ben