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01-06.-2008, 04:17 AM
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#16 |
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Re: USA Cycling is to blame
Casey Kerrigan wrote:
> Now if USADA will be handing out more > of this magic wand rewrite history type of penality then the USCF rules > will have to be altered to deal with this. Perhaps we can hack the virtual victory rbr super computer grid to act as a USADA magic wand. |
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01-06.-2008, 04:35 AM
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#17 |
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Re: USA Cycling is to blame
On Sat, 31 May 2008 09:16:02 -0400, MagillaGorilla <magilla@zoo.com>
wrote: >Fuentes has never paid back any of his prize money and neither has Neben. > >Neben was DQ'ed from 3 races in 2003 - including one 2.9.1 race she won >- and she never paid back a penny of any of that money. Riders who >moved up a place also were never paid prorated increases for moving up >one place. Anyone read the Joe Papp article in Outside magazine. |
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01-06.-2008, 04:37 AM
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#18 |
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Re: USA Cycling is to blame
On Sat, 31 May 2008 11:55:15 -0400, MagillaGorilla <magilla@zoo.com>
wrote: >Shawn Farrell is a fraud. The guy just sits on his ass and lets rules >be violated left and right. An officer in my club wrote to Farrell asking for clarification about a reported suspension, how to deal with prize money, etc and got a total non-answer. |
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01-06.-2008, 06:52 AM
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#19 |
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Re: USA Cycling is to blame
Casey Kerrigan wrote:
> In article <86KdnUuEwuEI6dzVnZ2dnUVZ_uGdnZ2d@ptd.net>, MagillaGorilla > <magilla@zoo.com> wrote: > > >>Bill C wrote: >> >> >>>On May 31, 9:16 am, MagillaGorilla <magi...@zoo.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Bill C wrote: >> >>>Neben's shit was just totally inexcuseable, and pure politics the >>>stench from that one is never going away. If Fuentes hasn't paid >>>everything back then there's no way in hell he should've been re- >>>instated. The huge reduction of the suspension was the worst of that >>>since noone else got that type of treatment. >>>I don't remember the details of the rules on this since it's not >>>something I have to deal with, but if it states that the prize money >>>must be repaid then there's no way in hell that Fuentes should've >>>gotten a license back if he hadn't paid back the prize money. >>>Bill C >> >> >>When you are DQ'ed from a race it means you don't get to keep the prize >>money. What details do you need to brush up on to figure that out? >> > > > Of course to be DQ'ed this has to happen before the end of the 15 > minute protest period and before the results are made final. Once the > results are made final you can no longer DQ a ride. > You are incorrect. I suggest you read the rulebook and the arbitration sanctions. Doping sanctions are not bound by that 15 minute rule. Do you think that Floyd gets to keep the trophy and the $600,000 from the 2006 Tour de France? Where do you people come up with this stuff? Magilla |
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01-06.-2008, 07:02 AM
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#20 |
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Re: USA Cycling is to blame
Casey Kerrigan wrote:
> In article <86KdnUuEwuEI6dzVnZ2dnUVZ_uGdnZ2d@ptd.net>, MagillaGorilla > <magilla@zoo.com> wrote: > > >>Bill C wrote: >> >> >>>On May 31, 9:16 am, MagillaGorilla <magi...@zoo.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Bill C wrote: >> >>>Neben's shit was just totally inexcuseable, and pure politics the >>>stench from that one is never going away. If Fuentes hasn't paid >>>everything back then there's no way in hell he should've been re- >>>instated. The huge reduction of the suspension was the worst of that >>>since noone else got that type of treatment. >>>I don't remember the details of the rules on this since it's not >>>something I have to deal with, but if it states that the prize money >>>must be repaid then there's no way in hell that Fuentes should've >>>gotten a license back if he hadn't paid back the prize money. >>>Bill C >> >> >>When you are DQ'ed from a race it means you don't get to keep the prize >>money. What details do you need to brush up on to figure that out? >> > > > Of course to be DQ'ed this has to happen before the end of the 15 > minute protest period and before the results are made final. Once the > results are made final you can no longer DQ a ride. > > Example from a big race I was an official at. In one of the main event > races a rider sat out a lap when a hard chase was going on. After > sitting out a lap the rider let air out of their tire and comes in for > a free lap. By this time the chase was over and the pace had slowed > down. Rider in question takes 3rd place. The results are announced and > the protest period ends. Right after the protest period had ended > riders come up who witnessed the whole incident. With some > investigation the officials were convinced that the rider in third had > improperly taken a free lap. Problem was since the results were final > nothing could be done to change the results so the only recourse was to > got for a suspension of the rider, which is what happened. > > The real problem with the Fuentes case is the USADA handed down some > conditions of punishment that don't fit with the USCF rules. Per the > USCF rule book once the protest period is over you can't go back and > change the results. You can't wave a magic wand and turn back time to > say a rider who placed in a race actually didn't place in a race. The problem with you (and most officials) is you need to read the USCF Rulebook: 1C3. A rider who is disqualified for a medical control infraction must promptly return any prizes and primes won in the event, though this obligation shall be stayed while a hearing is pending. Take care, Magilla |
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01-06.-2008, 07:09 AM
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#21 |
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Re: USA Cycling is to blame
Casey Kerrigan wrote:
> In article <86KdnUuEwuEI6dzVnZ2dnUVZ_uGdnZ2d@ptd.net>, MagillaGorilla > <magilla@zoo.com> wrote: > > >>Bill C wrote: >> >> >>>On May 31, 9:16 am, MagillaGorilla <magi...@zoo.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Bill C wrote: >> >>>Neben's shit was just totally inexcuseable, and pure politics the >>>stench from that one is never going away. If Fuentes hasn't paid >>>everything back then there's no way in hell he should've been re- >>>instated. The huge reduction of the suspension was the worst of that >>>since noone else got that type of treatment. >>>I don't remember the details of the rules on this since it's not >>>something I have to deal with, but if it states that the prize money >>>must be repaid then there's no way in hell that Fuentes should've >>>gotten a license back if he hadn't paid back the prize money. >>>Bill C >> >> >>When you are DQ'ed from a race it means you don't get to keep the prize >>money. What details do you need to brush up on to figure that out? >> > > > Of course to be DQ'ed this has to happen before the end of the 15 > minute protest period and before the results are made final. Once the > results are made final you can no longer DQ a ride. > > Example from a big race I was an official at. In one of the main event > races a rider sat out a lap when a hard chase was going on. After > sitting out a lap the rider let air out of their tire and comes in for > a free lap. By this time the chase was over and the pace had slowed > down. Rider in question takes 3rd place. The results are announced and > the protest period ends. Right after the protest period had ended > riders come up who witnessed the whole incident. With some > investigation the officials were convinced that the rider in third had > improperly taken a free lap. Problem was since the results were final > nothing could be done to change the results so the only recourse was to > got for a suspension of the rider, which is what happened. > > The real problem with the Fuentes case is the USADA handed down some > conditions of punishment that don't fit with the USCF rules. Per the > USCF rule book once the protest period is over you can't go back and > change the results. A protest is something that is filed by a team or rider and has NOTHING to do with whether or not USADA can DQ a rider for a doping violation. You will have everyone believe that a doping positive cannot cause a rider to be DQ'ed despite there being hundreds of precedents for this in cycling and other sports over the past 7 years. Something is seriously wrong with you. Magilla |
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01-06.-2008, 07:13 AM
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#22 |
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Re: USA Cycling is to blame
Casey Kerrigan wrote:
> In article <86KdnUuEwuEI6dzVnZ2dnUVZ_uGdnZ2d@ptd.net>, MagillaGorilla > <magilla@zoo.com> wrote: > > >>Bill C wrote: >> >> >>>On May 31, 9:16 am, MagillaGorilla <magi...@zoo.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Bill C wrote: >> >>>Neben's shit was just totally inexcuseable, and pure politics the >>>stench from that one is never going away. If Fuentes hasn't paid >>>everything back then there's no way in hell he should've been re- >>>instated. The huge reduction of the suspension was the worst of that >>>since noone else got that type of treatment. >>>I don't remember the details of the rules on this since it's not >>>something I have to deal with, but if it states that the prize money >>>must be repaid then there's no way in hell that Fuentes should've >>>gotten a license back if he hadn't paid back the prize money. >>>Bill C >> >> >>When you are DQ'ed from a race it means you don't get to keep the prize >>money. What details do you need to brush up on to figure that out? >> > > > Of course to be DQ'ed this has to happen before the end of the 15 > minute protest period and before the results are made final. Once the > results are made final you can no longer DQ a ride. > > Example from a big race I was an official at. In one of the main event > races a rider sat out a lap when a hard chase was going on. After > sitting out a lap the rider let air out of their tire and comes in for > a free lap. By this time the chase was over and the pace had slowed > down. Rider in question takes 3rd place. The results are announced and > the protest period ends. Right after the protest period had ended > riders come up who witnessed the whole incident. With some > investigation the officials were convinced that the rider in third had > improperly taken a free lap. Problem was since the results were final > nothing could be done to change the results so the only recourse was to > got for a suspension of the rider, which is what happened. > > The real problem with the Fuentes case is the USADA handed down some > conditions of punishment that don't fit with the USCF rules. Per the > USCF rule book once the protest period is over you can't go back and > change the results. You can't wave a magic wand and turn back time to > say a rider who placed in a race actually didn't place in a race. USADA > messed up by trying to pretend that a 14 month suspension was rally a > 24 month suspension. To achieve this 14 months equals 24 months reality > USADA asked that time be turned back and history be rewritten. > Unfortuantely this isn't how the USCF rule book works. If you actually bother to READ the USCF rulebook, it does allow for riders to be DQ'ed by doping violations. There's no "problem" with it except for officials who don't read the rulebook. Whoever told you that doping violations do not result in a rider being DQ'ed from a race is an idiot, not to mention wrong. I suggest you enroll in a RIF program when the camper comes to your local school. Magilla |
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01-06.-2008, 07:48 AM
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#23 |
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Re: USA Cycling is to blame
Casey Kerrigan wrote:
> In article <cv2dne-efcYP0tzVnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@ptd.net>, MagillaGorilla > <magilla@zoo.com> wrote: > > >> >>Fuentes has never paid back any of his prize money and neither has Neben. >> > > > BUZZZZZZZ Wrong thank you for playing. I do know that Fuentes did pay > back prize money for some of the races before he got his license back. > I think it came down that if a race requested that prize money be paid > back then he had to pay back for that race before he got his license. I > know of at least two races that made this request and I know that the > prize money requested was paid back before he got his license. > > Note I'm not going to get into the politics of if this was the right or > wrng thing to do I'm just clearing up a point of fact that at least > some prize money was paid back but not all prize money was paid back. If Fuentes did that then the promoter was obligated to pay back other riders who moved up one spot as a result of his DQ so 100% of the promised prize money was paid out. M understanding is that never happened. If the promoter did not do that then the promoter's race permit should be suspended. And if you stop acting sarcastic for a second, you'd know the promoter doesn't get to decide if prize money has to be redistributed as a result of a DQ, asshat. Prize money is based on results. The promoter has NOTHING to do with results. Results are determined by officials + doping sanctions. The promoter is obligated to honor official results, which INCLUDE DQ's from doping violations. Get a clue. You sound like Shawn Farrell reading from the rulebook. Magilla |
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01-06.-2008, 07:49 AM
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#24 |
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Re: USA Cycling is to blame
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Sat, 31 May 2008 09:16:02 -0400, MagillaGorilla <magilla@zoo.com> > wrote: > > >>Fuentes has never paid back any of his prize money and neither has Neben. >> >>Neben was DQ'ed from 3 races in 2003 - including one 2.9.1 race she won >>- and she never paid back a penny of any of that money. Riders who >>moved up a place also were never paid prorated increases for moving up >>one place. > > > Anyone read the Joe Papp article in Outside magazine. No. Did he say if he ever found his Cuban wife? Magilla |
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01-06.-2008, 08:02 AM
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#25 |
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Re: USA Cycling is to blame
On Sat, 31 May 2008 18:49:30 -0400, MagillaGorilla <magilla@zoo.com>
wrote: >John Forrest Tomlinson wrote: > >> On Sat, 31 May 2008 09:16:02 -0400, MagillaGorilla <magilla@zoo.com> >> wrote: >> >> >>>Fuentes has never paid back any of his prize money and neither has Neben. >>> >>>Neben was DQ'ed from 3 races in 2003 - including one 2.9.1 race she won >>>- and she never paid back a penny of any of that money. Riders who >>>moved up a place also were never paid prorated increases for moving up >>>one place. >> >> >> Anyone read the Joe Papp article in Outside magazine. > > >No. Did he say if he ever found his Cuban wife? My eyes kinda glossed over so I can't really say. I did learn he was caught doping just like some past Tour de France winners. So pro. |
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01-06.-2008, 02:25 PM
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#26 |
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Re: USA Cycling is to blame
"MagillaGorilla" <magilla@zoo.com> wrote in message news  NudnfsG04IpSNzVnZ2dnUVZ_gSdnZ2d@ptd.net...> > If Fuentes did that then the promoter was obligated to pay back other > riders who moved up one spot as a result of his DQ so 100% of the promised > prize money was paid out. M understanding is that never happened. If the > promoter did not do that then the promoter's race permit should be > suspended. > > And if you stop acting sarcastic for a second, you'd know the promoter > doesn't get to decide if prize money has to be redistributed as a result > of a DQ, asshat. Prize money is based on results. The promoter has > NOTHING to do with results. Results are determined by officials + doping > sanctions. The promoter is obligated to honor official results, which > INCLUDE DQ's from doping violations. > > Get a clue. You sound like Shawn Farrell reading from the rulebook. > > Magilla Let me preface my comments by saying that I don't know the rulebook as well as I used to so this rule may have been modified or deleted. ISTR that in regard to either both world championship and Olympic medals or one or the other, if there was a violation that was discovered after the award ceremony then the placing would be vacated and remain empty, thus if you placed second at the time of the event, that's what you stayed with. If you placed 4th, you were still out of the medals. |
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01-06.-2008, 08:17 PM
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#27 |
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Re: USA Cycling is to blame
Carl Sundquist wrote:
> > "MagillaGorilla" <magilla@zoo.com> wrote in message > news NudnfsG04IpSNzVnZ2dnUVZ_gSdnZ2d@ptd.net...> >> >> If Fuentes did that then the promoter was obligated to pay back other >> riders who moved up one spot as a result of his DQ so 100% of the >> promised prize money was paid out. M understanding is that never >> happened. If the promoter did not do that then the promoter's race >> permit should be suspended. >> >> And if you stop acting sarcastic for a second, you'd know the promoter >> doesn't get to decide if prize money has to be redistributed as a >> result of a DQ, asshat. Prize money is based on results. The >> promoter has NOTHING to do with results. Results are determined by >> officials + doping sanctions. The promoter is obligated to honor >> official results, which INCLUDE DQ's from doping violations. >> >> Get a clue. You sound like Shawn Farrell reading from the rulebook. >> >> Magilla > > > Let me preface my comments by saying that I don't know the rulebook as > well as I used to so this rule may have been modified or deleted. > > ISTR that in regard to either both world championship and Olympic medals > or one or the other, if there was a violation that was discovered after > the award ceremony then the placing would be vacated and remain empty, > thus if you placed second at the time of the event, that's what you > stayed with. If you placed 4th, you were still out of the medals. Are you saying that there was no winner of the 2006 Tour de France? You are wrong. There are actually rules in the rulebook that say riders move up when a rider is DQ'ed. By failing to move riders up a place, you are not making sense because you are basically saying a DQ'ed rider still occupies that place. This is not uncharted waters....especially in the Olympics. Ever hear of a female skier named Beckie Scott: http://www.cbc.ca/news/story/2003/1...cott031218.html When Roberto Heras was stripped of his Vuelta title, do you think the guy who got second - Denny Menchy - wasn't declared the winner? You don't recall this? http://www.velonorth.ca/index.php?n...article&sid=642 None of this should be news. Magilla |
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02-06.-2008, 12:44 AM
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#28 |
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Re: USA Cycling is to blame
"MagillaGorilla" <magilla@zoo.com> wrote in message news:GMydnYOq076lGN_VnZ2dnUVZ_orinZ2d@ptd.net... > Carl Sundquist wrote: > >> >> "MagillaGorilla" <magilla@zoo.com> wrote in message >> news NudnfsG04IpSNzVnZ2dnUVZ_gSdnZ2d@ptd.net...>> >>> >>> If Fuentes did that then the promoter was obligated to pay back other >>> riders who moved up one spot as a result of his DQ so 100% of the >>> promised prize money was paid out. M understanding is that never >>> happened. If the promoter did not do that then the promoter's race >>> permit should be suspended. >>> >>> And if you stop acting sarcastic for a second, you'd know the promoter >>> doesn't get to decide if prize money has to be redistributed as a result >>> of a DQ, asshat. Prize money is based on results. The promoter has >>> NOTHING to do with results. Results are determined by officials + >>> doping sanctions. The promoter is obligated to honor official results, >>> which INCLUDE DQ's from doping violations. >>> >>> Get a clue. You sound like Shawn Farrell reading from the rulebook. >>> >>> Magilla >> >> >> Let me preface my comments by saying that I don't know the rulebook as >> well as I used to so this rule may have been modified or deleted. >> >> ISTR that in regard to either both world championship and Olympic medals >> or one or the other, if there was a violation that was discovered after >> the award ceremony then the placing would be vacated and remain empty, >> thus if you placed second at the time of the event, that's what you >> stayed with. If you placed 4th, you were still out of the medals. > > > Are you saying that there was no winner of the 2006 Tour de France? > > You are wrong. There are actually rules in the rulebook that say riders > move up when a rider is DQ'ed. By failing to move riders up a place, you > are not making sense because you are basically saying a DQ'ed rider still > occupies that place. > > This is not uncharted waters....especially in the Olympics. Ever hear of > a female skier named Beckie Scott: > > http://www.cbc.ca/news/story/2003/1...cott031218.html > > When Roberto Heras was stripped of his Vuelta title, do you think the guy > who got second - Denny Menchy - wasn't declared the winner? You don't > recall this? > > http://www.velonorth.ca/index.php?n...article&sid=642 > > None of this should be news. > > > Magilla Where did I write anything about the TdF or the Vuelta? http://www.memoire-du-cyclisme.net/...emifond_ama.php 1988, footnotes http://www.memoire-du-cyclisme.net/...ndial_derny.php 1980 & 1988, footnotes http://www.memoire-du-cyclisme.net/...dial_keirin.php 2003, footnotes http://www.memoire-du-cyclisme.net/...vitesse_pro.php 1988 & 1991, footnotes |
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02-06.-2008, 02:52 AM
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#29 |
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Re: USA Cycling is to blame
Bob Schwartz wrote:
> When did you get all 'dopers suck' and shit? Aren't we sort of selective > in our outrage? Selective outrage is a primate trait. |
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02-06.-2008, 04:04 AM
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#30 |
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Re: USA Cycling is to blame
On May 31, 3:11 pm, Casey Kerrigan <ca...@caseykerrrigan.com> wrote:
> With some > investigation the officials were convinced that the rider in third had > improperly taken a free lap. Problem was since the results were final > nothing could be done to change the results so the only recourse was to > got for a suspension of the rider, which is what happened. dumbass, the USCF rules may be different, but under UCI rules a commissaire is only supposed to make a ruling based on something he witnessed, not based on accounts from riders and spectators. if an incident isn't witnessed a rider can file a complaint and it goes to the gov. body who can choose to suspend the rider based on testimony. this often happens when a rider assaults another rider, but it can be for other incidents and it sounds like that's what happened in the case you descibe. typically the race jury "disbands" (excuse me as i forget the exact terminology) sometime (usually 48 hrs) after the event. there might be a 15 min window for protests after the race, but at a UCI race the jury can make a decision sometime after that if they want to - say for instance they view photo or video evidence of a violation. |
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