Another reason to avoid critical mass...

Tom Keats

In article <49f2cc8a-c4e4-4f79-a259-34aa3505d0ab@34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
N8N <njnagel@hotmail.com> writes:
> On May 21, 3:15*pm, russo...@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew T. Russotto)
> wrote:
>> In article <7c745e96-c2a5-4396-8874-ea1787384...@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
>>
>> N8N *<njna...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >And I see cyclists doing it every day as well. *The solution is not to
>> >try to one-up each other, the solution is to enforce the damn laws.
>>
>> Fix 'em first, or you end up in Aunt Judyland.
> I don't really have a problem with current ROW, signaling, etc. rules
> other than the facts that a) most people don't follow them and b)
> there seem to be no consequences for failure to follow them.

I actually agree with you.

But "current" ROW is venerable ROW rules. They've
existed for a long time, and in my opinion they're
the best way to keep traffic flowing as it should.

I generally go by ROW rules myself, except I have to
frequently yield to obviously ROW-ignorant drivers,
of which there are so many. "Signalling" & signage
are supposed to be mere reminders of ROW rules in
areas where traffic movements might be more complex,
but the ROW rules still apply. Nowadays, people are
more inclined to just follow the directives of the
city signage (or not) through which they progress,
while having no inkling of ROW rules. I shall always
remember: "ROW is always given, never taken."

In some ways, Critical Mass is a reaction about
so many car drivers selfishly taking ROW. In fact
robbing other peoples' R'sOW.

I guess people like being told what to do, rather
than knowing what ~to~ do. Of course, when told
what to do, they'll ignore or even contradict it
anyways.


cheers,
Tom
--


















































































Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

Tom Keats

In article <GvidnQK1E4mw5KjVnZ2dnUVZ_vzinZ2d@comcast.com>,
Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> writes:
>>
>> Brent, I *am* in your area and even if I weren't I'd stand by my
>> statement. Even accepting your story as 100% accurate doesn't change
>> it. Maybe the cop was having a bad day. Maybe he's simply not the best
>> cop around. Who knows? You don't and neither do I. What I do know is
>> judging a group of roughly 18,000 (an approximation of the number of
>> cops in the Chicago area) that must easily average 10 contacts with
>> the public each day by the actions of one cop in one instance on one
>> day is, to be kind, statistically unsound.
>
> Should I tell a few more stories for you? If douchebag cops were so
> rare, why is it that I've met so many of them...

Maybe your attitude draws 'em.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

Brent P

On 2008-05-23, Tom Keats <tkeats2005@hotmail.com> wrote:

> When drivers infantilely react to the presence of innocent riders
> who are just politely but rightfully minding their own business,
> it's not because of any perceived misdeeds of third-party riders
> in past experiences; it's all about the here and now.

That's like saying the US federal government bombing someone's family
doesn't encourage them to work for the terrorist groups. When you go
around acting like an arsehole to everyone using a motor vehicle with
the justification that lots of motorists act like arseholes to
bicyclists, it is reasonable to expect that motorists may begin acting
in the same group think.

You might think in the here-and-now and forget all that occured before,
it's a common american problem, however all people are not that way.

It seems that you haven't 'spoken' with these arseholish drivers much.
The reasoning for their behavior that I hear from them most often is
that bicyclists ride illegally all the time so they are justified. I
have no reason that is how they justify their behavior. After all that's
how you justify CM's behavior towards all motorists.

> Y'know what numbers would really interest me
> right now? How many bike riders get clobbered
> by (unsuccessfully) trying to beat the train at
> level crossings, vs how many drivers?

Reports I've seen seem in proportion to road usage. Peds get hit by
trains too...

Brent P

On 2008-05-23, Tom Keats <tkeats2005@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <GvidnQK1E4mw5KjVnZ2dnUVZ_vzinZ2d@comcast.com>,
> Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> writes:
>>>
>>> Brent, I *am* in your area and even if I weren't I'd stand by my
>>> statement. Even accepting your story as 100% accurate doesn't change
>>> it. Maybe the cop was having a bad day. Maybe he's simply not the best
>>> cop around. Who knows? You don't and neither do I. What I do know is
>>> judging a group of roughly 18,000 (an approximation of the number of
>>> cops in the Chicago area) that must easily average 10 contacts with
>>> the public each day by the actions of one cop in one instance on one
>>> day is, to be kind, statistically unsound.
>>
>> Should I tell a few more stories for you? If douchebag cops were so
>> rare, why is it that I've met so many of them...
>
> Maybe your attitude draws 'em.

lol. Exactly how to they decern that when I am walking along the
sidewalk with my dinner minding my own business? Or when I am driving
at/below the posted speed limit... oh wait, I forgot the speed limits
are set so low they think most everyone under 70yrs old who obeys the
limit is trying to avoid cops. And the vehicular bicycling... that's
just way too non-comformist.

Paul O

Bill Sornson wrote, On 5/22/2008 8:46 PM:
> Bob wrote:
>
>> On May 22, 8:46 am, Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2008-05-22, Bob <hunr...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On May 21, 8:16 pm, Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2008-05-22, Bob <hunr...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> occurred on very rare occasions. It is extremely unlikely to
>>>>>> happen except as an aberration though for several reasons. First,
>>>>>> most C-M rides are good natured and, as a group, cops would
>>>>>> rather let a few minor traffic infractions slide than take
>>>>>> actions that turn a good natured event into a major hassle.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe in your area.... while I was driving I had a cop do a U-turn
>>>>> and come flying after me because I 'made a face at him'. And yes,
>>>>> I did make a face at him after he turned right across my path with
>>>>> his cellphone to his ear.
>>>>>
>>>> Brent, I *am* in your area and even if I weren't I'd stand by my
>>>> statement. Even accepting your story as 100% accurate doesn't change
>>>> it. Maybe the cop was having a bad day. Maybe he's simply not the
>>>> best cop around. Who knows? You don't and neither do I. What I do
>>>> know is judging a group of roughly 18,000 (an approximation of the
>>>> number of cops in the Chicago area) that must easily average 10
>>>> contacts with the public each day by the actions of one cop in one
>>>> instance on one day is, to be kind, statistically unsound.
>>>>
>>> Should I tell a few more stories for you? If douchebag cops were so
>>> rare, why is it that I've met so many of them.
>>>
>> I can think of several explanations, the most likely ones are that: A)
>> you are seriously exaggerating or B) making your stories up as you go
>> along. That leaves at least two more obvious explanations: C) you're
>> well known to the police in the areas you most frequent as a
>> knucklehead that's usually up to no good or D) you're off your meds. I
>> think I'll go with B.
>>
>
> LOL I wonder what the "common denominator" was in all of Brent's alleged
> encounters? LOL
>
>
>
Yes, I have to wonder what Brent has been up to. I haven't had any sort
of negative encounter with a member of the law enforcement community for
over 29 years. I fact, I rarely ever encounter cops under any circumstances.

The one and only serious negative encounter I ever had with law
enforcement authorities was, um... Lets just say that the cops acted
properly and were only doing their duty.

--

Paul D Oosterhout
I work for SAIC (but I don't speak for SAIC)

Paul O

Bill Sornson wrote, On 5/22/2008 8:46 PM:
> Bob wrote:
>
>> On May 22, 8:46 am, Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2008-05-22, Bob <hunr...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On May 21, 8:16 pm, Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2008-05-22, Bob <hunr...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> occurred on very rare occasions. It is extremely unlikely to
>>>>>> happen except as an aberration though for several reasons. First,
>>>>>> most C-M rides are good natured and, as a group, cops would
>>>>>> rather let a few minor traffic infractions slide than take
>>>>>> actions that turn a good natured event into a major hassle.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe in your area.... while I was driving I had a cop do a U-turn
>>>>> and come flying after me because I 'made a face at him'. And yes,
>>>>> I did make a face at him after he turned right across my path with
>>>>> his cellphone to his ear.
>>>>>
>>>> Brent, I *am* in your area and even if I weren't I'd stand by my
>>>> statement. Even accepting your story as 100% accurate doesn't change
>>>> it. Maybe the cop was having a bad day. Maybe he's simply not the
>>>> best cop around. Who knows? You don't and neither do I. What I do
>>>> know is judging a group of roughly 18,000 (an approximation of the
>>>> number of cops in the Chicago area) that must easily average 10
>>>> contacts with the public each day by the actions of one cop in one
>>>> instance on one day is, to be kind, statistically unsound.
>>>>
>>> Should I tell a few more stories for you? If douchebag cops were so
>>> rare, why is it that I've met so many of them.
>>>
>> I can think of several explanations, the most likely ones are that: A)
>> you are seriously exaggerating or B) making your stories up as you go
>> along. That leaves at least two more obvious explanations: C) you're
>> well known to the police in the areas you most frequent as a
>> knucklehead that's usually up to no good or D) you're off your meds. I
>> think I'll go with B.
>>
>
> LOL I wonder what the "common denominator" was in all of Brent's alleged
> encounters? LOL
>
>
>
Yes, also I have to wonder what Brent has been up to. I haven't had any
sort of negative encounter with a member of the law enforcement
community for over 29 years. I fact, I rarely ever encounter cops under
any circumstances.

The one and only serious negative encounter I ever had with law
enforcement authorities was, um... Lets just say that the cops acted
properly and were only doing their duty.

--

Paul D Oosterhout
I work for SAIC (but I don't speak for SAIC)

Brent P

On 2008-05-23, Paul O <first.d.last@company.com> wrote:

> Yes, also I have to wonder what Brent has been up to. I haven't had any
> sort of negative encounter with a member of the law enforcement
> community for over 29 years. I fact, I rarely ever encounter cops under
> any circumstances.

I walk on the sidewalk. I bike vehicularly to the letter of the vehicle
code. I drive the same way. None of the items I listed resulted in
anything more than the cop just being the bullies many of them are,
except the one where the cop lied in court. That was where he said I
did not stop before turning right on red. Problem was it was an odd
intersection and I was across the stop line prior to the light turning
red. The stop line was some 40 feet before the plane of the
intersection.

There ya go. Big time trouble maker eh?

You fellows understand you are siding with cops that just like to
harrass bicyclists for using the roadway... When I followed the
bicycling newsgroups people told their experiences of those kind...

Tom Keats

In article <aKudnYFlLrgsvqnVnZ2dnUVZ_jmdnZ2d@comcast.com>,
Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> writes:
> On 2008-05-21, Tom Keats <tkeats2005@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> We all get to see drivers' P'sOV via their own
>> acting like dicks and breaking a bunch of laws
>> in their own Critical Masses, every single day
>> of every year (as opposed to one day out of
>> every month.)
>
> I see similiar percentages of people acting like dicks and generally
> behaving poorly with regards to right of way on the road regardless of
> vehicle. Somewhat higher percentages for cabbies, rice boys, and of
> course truckers.
>
>> AISI, in some ways bicycle Critical Mass is a
>> mirror-reflection of drivers' behaviours, right
>> back in their faces. C-M informs drivers of their
>> own inflictions and afflictions upon people.
>> Apparently drivers don't like the taste of their
>> own medicine.
>
> It's the GWB policy of mirroring the terrorism to an entire population
> that superficially looks like the terrorists. And surprise, all it does
> is anger people and increase the ranks of terrorists.

Critical Mass participants by 'n large aren't terrorists,
and don't give a rat's tukis about GWB policy. And certainly,
just anybody riding along and trying to get from A to B doesn't
care about politics either. They (we) just wanna safely get to B.


As for people's anger, I guess it's up to the angry people
to explain their anger.

> By taking the assholishness of *SOME* drivers and mirroring it to *ALL*
> drivers what you end up doing is getting drivers that weren't a problem
> to decide to mirror your assholishness back at all bicyclists.

No.

Some drivers aren't problems. They understand ROW rules,
and govern themselves accordingly.

Some drivers /are/ problems.

> CM is not
> doing any good. It just convinces drivers who weren't a problem that
> bicyclists deserve to be treated poorly.
>
> Your 'us' vs. 'them' view simply creates a condition of perpetual 'war'.

It's hardly an us vs them view. Or maybe it is, when people
think in terms of who has more right to the urban streets by
dint of the size & weight and killing capacity of their vehicles.

I wish it wasn't us vs. them, I wish it was just "us".
As my grandmother would say: "If wishes were horses,
beggars would ride."


> The problem drivers never vanish, the 'need' for bicycle activism
> never disappears because CM and others are out there agitating people
> who weren't a problem. Find some bees that were minding their own
> business out in the woods not bothering you and wack their hive with a
> stick because some bee stung you once.. That's essentially what CM is
> doing.

No, it's much more than that.

> Pissing off lots of drivers to get back at a minority of the
> them. It's stupid unless you're in the activism business and need to
> keep an enemy around.

AISI, Critical Mass doesn't want enemies.



> If you really want to piss off the problem drivers, the thing to do is
> ride 100% to the vehicle code.

If you really want to piss of a bunch of your fellow
human beans, the thing to do is drive a car in such
a manner that cuts them off from where they need to go.
I guess you don't even relate to the effect car drivers
have at intersections, where pedestrians should have the
right to go, but you're selfishly blocking their paths.
Or worse yet, threatening to run 'em over in right-on-red
jurisdictions.

>> I encourage you to consider the societal effects
>> of your own urban car-driving. You get to go,
>> and life is good. But you're in a stream of urban
>> car traffic that keeps non-driving others from being
>> able to cross the street you're on, so they could get
>> to the shops they want to patronize.
>
> Lol. And one can just walk through a stream of bicyclists?

Actually, one can, and much more easily than through a
stream of MV drivers.

> One's like CM
> who don't even stop for red signals?

Ooh, you missed a light cycle? Heaven forbid.
That's what those goddam Emergency Response
Vehicles do to traffic, too (they cause you to
miss a light cycle.)

The horror. The horror.

Especially on the last Friday of the month
when yer impatiently lookin' forward to
seafood 'n nookie after work. Precious
seconds are lost.

As my Filipino friends say: "Life is hard." <shrug>


cheers,
Tom

Brent P

On 2008-05-25, Tom Keats <tkeats2005@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <aKudnYFlLrgsvqnVnZ2dnUVZ_jmdnZ2d@comcast.com>,
> Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> writes:

>>> AISI, in some ways bicycle Critical Mass is a
>>> mirror-reflection of drivers' behaviours, right
>>> back in their faces. C-M informs drivers of their
>>> own inflictions and afflictions upon people.
>>> Apparently drivers don't like the taste of their
>>> own medicine.
>>
>> It's the GWB policy of mirroring the terrorism to an entire population
>> that superficially looks like the terrorists. And surprise, all it does
>> is anger people and increase the ranks of terrorists.

> Critical Mass participants by 'n large aren't terrorists,
> and don't give a rat's tukis about GWB policy. And certainly,
> just anybody riding along and trying to get from A to B doesn't
> care about politics either. They (we) just wanna safely get to B.

Talk about intentionally missing the point. Angering people who are not
your enemy does not help your cause.

> As for people's anger, I guess it's up to the angry people
> to explain their anger.

You are endorsing deliberately treating other people poorly and you
expect them to say 'yes sir, may I have another' and treat you with
kindness. That is absurd.

>> By taking the assholishness of *SOME* drivers and mirroring it to *ALL*
>> drivers what you end up doing is getting drivers that weren't a problem
>> to decide to mirror your assholishness back at all bicyclists.

> No.
> Some drivers aren't problems. They understand ROW rules,
> and govern themselves accordingly.
> Some drivers /are/ problems.

Critical mass and the views you've been putting forth do not separate
the two. You see someone driving and that's good enough to treat them
poorly, in the theme of group think.

>> CM is not
>> doing any good. It just convinces drivers who weren't a problem that
>> bicyclists deserve to be treated poorly.

>> Your 'us' vs. 'them' view simply creates a condition of perpetual 'war'.

> It's hardly an us vs them view. Or maybe it is, when people
> think in terms of who has more right to the urban streets by
> dint of the size & weight and killing capacity of their vehicles.

> I wish it wasn't us vs. them, I wish it was just "us".
> As my grandmother would say: "If wishes were horses,
> beggars would ride."

Your justifications are "us vs. them"

>> The problem drivers never vanish, the 'need' for bicycle activism
>> never disappears because CM and others are out there agitating people
>> who weren't a problem. Find some bees that were minding their own
>> business out in the woods not bothering you and wack their hive with a
>> stick because some bee stung you once.. That's essentially what CM is
>> doing.

> No, it's much more than that.

The roving party/carnival is not material to the discussion.

>> Pissing off lots of drivers to get back at a minority of the
>> them. It's stupid unless you're in the activism business and need to
>> keep an enemy around.

> AISI, Critical Mass doesn't want enemies.

And yet it goes out of its way to make them.

>> If you really want to piss off the problem drivers, the thing to do is
>> ride 100% to the vehicle code.

> If you really want to piss of a bunch of your fellow
> human beans, the thing to do is drive a car in such
> a manner that cuts them off from where they need to go.

LOL. And you think the half hour and longer traffic jams created by CM's
parade ignoring the red signals doesn't do that? They are making
enemies. You've de-humanized the person in the motor vehicle, classic.

> I guess you don't even relate to the effect car drivers
> have at intersections, where pedestrians should have the
> right to go, but you're selfishly blocking their paths.
> Or worse yet, threatening to run 'em over in right-on-red
> jurisdictions.

I'm often the pedestrian. DUh. I had one guy stop his car and get out
because I didn't yield to grand-marquis.... lol... he was like 80 years
old too... then his brain started to function and decided it wasn't good
to pick a fight with someone bigger than him and less than half his age
and doesn't need a moving living room to get from A to B.

>>> I encourage you to consider the societal effects
>>> of your own urban car-driving. You get to go,
>>> and life is good. But you're in a stream of urban
>>> car traffic that keeps non-driving others from being
>>> able to cross the street you're on, so they could get
>>> to the shops they want to patronize.

>> Lol. And one can just walk through a stream of bicyclists?

> Actually, one can, and much more easily than through a
> stream of MV drivers.

Nope. There's a reason you're not supposed to ride on sidewalks.

>> One's like CM
>> who don't even stop for red signals?

> Ooh, you missed a light cycle? Heaven forbid.
> That's what those goddam Emergency Response
> Vehicles do to traffic, too (they cause you to
> miss a light cycle.)
> The horror. The horror.
> Especially on the last Friday of the month
> when yer impatiently lookin' forward to
> seafood 'n nookie after work. Precious
> seconds are lost.

> As my Filipino friends say: "Life is hard." <shrug>

And you wonder why you aren't greeted with love and kisses. Guess what,
those are similiar sentiments expressed by the drivers who've tried to
run me off the road and done other aggressive asshatery towards me while
I bike. It's the same thing... right down to the belitting of someone
not wanting to be delayed. Heaven forbid CM have to wait at a red
signal.... Many an assholish motorist figures since I am on a bicycle
that my time is meaningless. They gun it around me, slam on the brakes
and then don't accelerate when the light turns green. Like you say, CM
is a 'mirror' it's a mirror of assholes. Pissing off motorists who
aren't a problem to bicyclists. But later they may decided to mirror
CM's assholishness. I've encountered those people on the road. They feel
that treating me poorly as I bike is justified because some asshole on a
bicycle wronged them. Probably because some motorist wronged him.
Endless cycle. Perpetual war because of group think.

Tom Keats

In article <LOGdnbO1Gb9ouafVnZ2dnUVZ_rCtnZ2d@comcast.com>,
Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> writes:

> And you wonder why you aren't greeted with love and kisses. Guess what,
> those are similiar sentiments expressed by the drivers who've tried to
> run me off the road and done other aggressive asshatery towards me while
> I bike. It's the same thing... right down to the belitting of someone
> not wanting to be delayed. Heaven forbid CM have to wait at a red
> signal.... Many an assholish motorist figures since I am on a bicycle
> that my time is meaningless. They gun it around me, slam on the brakes
> and then don't accelerate when the light turns green. Like you say, CM
> is a 'mirror' it's a mirror of assholes. Pissing off motorists who
> aren't a problem to bicyclists. But later they may decided to mirror
> CM's assholishness. I've encountered those people on the road. They feel
> that treating me poorly as I bike is justified because some asshole on a
> bicycle wronged them. Probably because some motorist wronged him.
> Endless cycle. Perpetual war because of group think.


I don't wanna kiss you (or anyone) right now,
and I feel too good to argue. But I like & respect
you. I pretty much like & respect everybody.

Life is hard, but life is also good.

Not just when we recognize the goodness of life
for ourselves, but for other people.

Goodness Of Life is for people to have so we
can share it with each other, like in a global
picnic, and be drawn closer together, and work
together toward improving each others' lots.
(Yikes, I'm startin' to sound like a Rebbi!
Oh, well.)

The other option is dark and evil.
I prefer to avoid those squalid quarters.
That's why I've always refused to drive.
I consider myself blessed by not having
had to subjucate myself to, and suffer that
ignonimy of having stuff that works for /me/,
while simultaneously working against others.

Assholes often have people attached to 'em.

I like people.

It would appear our attitudes differ a little.
Oh, well.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

Brent P

On 2008-05-26, Tom Keats <tkeats2005@hotmail.com> wrote:

> It would appear our attitudes differ a little.
> Oh, well.

You think that it's just 'revenge' to treat people badly based on them
looking like other people that treated you badly and I do not.

Tom Keats

In article <evOdnfF_rJNuqqfVnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@comcast.com>,
Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> writes:
> On 2008-05-26, Tom Keats <tkeats2005@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It would appear our attitudes differ a little.
>> Oh, well.
>
> You think that it's just 'revenge' to treat people badly based on them
> looking like other people that treated you badly and I do not.

No I don't. And I'm not into treating people badly.
WTH does that come from?

Revenge is just a bunch o' barbaric razzmatazz.
We all know that.

FWIW I don't want to treat
anyone badly.

Do /you/ want to treat anyone badly?

I don't think you do.

But you sure have a hair up your ass about
percieved [mis]deeds of other people.

You should lighten up. All car drivers should.

Life is hard <shrug> ;-)


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

PK

"Tom Keats" <tkeats20005@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e1ud1g.ga.ln@vcn.bc.ca...
>
> You should lighten up. All car drivers should.


interesting generalization, ...." all car drivers....."?

pk

Brent P

On 2008-05-26, Tom Keats <tkeats20005@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <evOdnfF_rJNuqqfVnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@comcast.com>,
> Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> writes:
>> On 2008-05-26, Tom Keats <tkeats2005@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> It would appear our attitudes differ a little.
>>> Oh, well.
>>
>> You think that it's just 'revenge' to treat people badly based on them
>> looking like other people that treated you badly and I do not.
>
> No I don't. And I'm not into treating people badly.
> WTH does that come from?

You've endorsed 'mirroring' the worst behavior of motorists on all
motorists.

> You should lighten up. All car drivers should.


You should grow a clue.