Another reason to avoid critical mass...

Bob

On May 21, 2:23*pm, russo...@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew T. Russotto)
wrote:
> In article <67bfc930-4b4b-4742-8a3b-15daa700f...@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com>,
>
> DennisTheBald *<DennisTheB...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >I'm confused on a couple points, I'm hoping that one of the big
> >brained folks here can straighten me out.
>
> >First, how do the g-men go about infiltrating an event? *I'm mean if
> >CM was a group that you could join like the klan I would get it, but
> >I've been led to believe that CM was pretty much just something that
> >happened and thems involved didn't really elect officers.
>
> So the G-men just go. *Then start an incident. *Then arrest anyone
> else involved in the incident they started. *It's an old, old, trick;
> goes back to Roman times at the very least.
> --
> * There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
> * result in a fully-depreciated one.

What you suggest is within the realm of possibility and may have even
occurred on very rare occasions. It is extremely unlikely to happen
except as an aberration though for several reasons. First, most C-M
rides are good natured and, as a group, cops would rather let a few
minor traffic infractions slide than take actions that turn a good
natured event into a major hassle. Second, the overwhelming majority
of cops don't like to have to use force. We'll use it when we have to
but every use of force is another opportunity to get hurt, to catch a
beef, to get sued, etcetera. As a group, we don't like those
possibilities anymore than you do. Third, and the more radical among C-
Mers may find this offensive so I'll apologize for any hurt feelings
in advance, Critical Mass is rather far down on the list of things
most cops worry about. I'd put it somewhere between jaywalking and
garden variety panhandling. All three are irritating at times but they
are *minor* irritants. Last but by no means least, most of the people
that run police departments are administrators first and cops second,
if at all. Administrators tend to like peace and quiet in their
domains. Incidents, especially mass arrest incidents, are never quiet
and rarely peaceful. Show me a cop that has complete faith in his
superiors' backing him when he instigates an incident that disturbs
those superiors' peace and quiet and I'll show you a naive fool. Since
there are so many of us it's safe to say that some of us are naive and
some of us are fools but I doubt many of us are naive fools that also
just happen to hate C-M.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Brent P

On 2008-05-22, Bob <hunrobe@aol.com> wrote:
> occurred on very rare occasions. It is extremely unlikely to happen
> except as an aberration though for several reasons. First, most C-M
> rides are good natured and, as a group, cops would rather let a few
> minor traffic infractions slide than take actions that turn a good
> natured event into a major hassle.

Maybe in your area.... while I was driving I had a cop do a U-turn and
come flying after me because I 'made a face at him'. And yes, I did make
a face at him after he turned right across my path with his cellphone to
his ear.

Bob

On May 21, 8:16*pm, Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> On 2008-05-22, Bob <hunr...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > occurred on very rare occasions. It is extremely unlikely to happen
> > except as an aberration though for several reasons. First, most C-M
> > rides are good natured and, as a group, cops would rather let a few
> > minor traffic infractions slide than take actions that turn a good
> > natured event into a major hassle.
>
> Maybe in your area.... while I was driving I had a cop do a U-turn and
> come flying after me because I 'made a face at him'. And yes, I did make
> a face at him after he turned right across my path with his cellphone to
> his ear.

Brent, I *am* in your area and even if I weren't I'd stand by my
statement. Even accepting your story as 100% accurate doesn't change
it. Maybe the cop was having a bad day. Maybe he's simply not the best
cop around. Who knows? You don't and neither do I. What I do know is
judging a group of roughly 18,000 (an approximation of the number of
cops in the Chicago area) that must easily average 10 contacts with
the public each day by the actions of one cop in one instance on one
day is, to be kind, statistically unsound.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

r15757@aol.com

On May 20, 7:12 am, Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> ... Simple as
> that. It pisses them off and they have nothing to argue with. Plus no
> collateral damage.

> Silly me, I don't want more drivers gunning for a lone bicyclist because
> some group of riders pissed them off.

Seems like you're getting your signals crossed there a little bit.

But you are right -- riding strictly according to the law, especially
if it involves 'lane-taking,' will piss off drivers.

Brent P

On 2008-05-22, Bob <hunrobe@aol.com> wrote:
> On May 21, 8:16*pm, Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>> On 2008-05-22, Bob <hunr...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> > occurred on very rare occasions. It is extremely unlikely to happen
>> > except as an aberration though for several reasons. First, most C-M
>> > rides are good natured and, as a group, cops would rather let a few
>> > minor traffic infractions slide than take actions that turn a good
>> > natured event into a major hassle.
>>
>> Maybe in your area.... while I was driving I had a cop do a U-turn and
>> come flying after me because I 'made a face at him'. And yes, I did make
>> a face at him after he turned right across my path with his cellphone to
>> his ear.
>
> Brent, I *am* in your area and even if I weren't I'd stand by my
> statement. Even accepting your story as 100% accurate doesn't change
> it. Maybe the cop was having a bad day. Maybe he's simply not the best
> cop around. Who knows? You don't and neither do I. What I do know is
> judging a group of roughly 18,000 (an approximation of the number of
> cops in the Chicago area) that must easily average 10 contacts with
> the public each day by the actions of one cop in one instance on one
> day is, to be kind, statistically unsound.

Should I tell a few more stories for you? If douchebag cops were so
rare, why is it that I've met so many of them... like the *TWO*
different cops on two different occasions that pulled me over when I was
biking and demanded that ride to the right of the white line? Where
there was about 3in of pavement btw. Or the cop that stopped me because
I yelled 'go green light go' to a motorist who was sitting still on
green in front of me. The motorist then flipped me off. the cop stops me
and tells me to ride _ON THE SIDEWALK_, that he doesn't like the way I
ride, on the street as a vehicle.

Now let me tell you about a few more duchebag cops... like the one that
ticketed me and then lied in court... or maybe the first cop encounter I
can remember, the state trooper who was aggressively tailgating me and
then when I stopped to make a left turn pulled his cruiser on to the
gravel shoulder and accelerated hard to spray my freshly painted car
with gravel.

Or just the other week, the harvey,IL cop that guned it around me, cut
me off and nailed the brakes so he could make a right turn. We were the
only two cars on the road for at least two blocks in either direction.

How about the state trooper that some years ago nearly crashed into my
car as he was doing 90+mph in a 45mph zone without his rollers on?

I've got more... there was this driver swinging back and forth across
the two WB travel lanes at 25mph in a 45mph zone. I got in the right
lane, waited for the driver to start swinging left, punched it up to
45mph to pass... who does the cop pull over seeing all this? You got it,
me, to run my papers.

Oh then there was another papers stop where the cop lied and said a car
similiar to my then about 25 year old ford was involved in a crime...
lol. Poor cop was new to the job, he couldn't keep a straight face lying
like that.

Should I go on? The chicago bicycle cop that ran red light after red
light. I would pass him mid block then stop at a red and he would sail
through it. Get this, it gets better... I am waiting at a red and the
cop sails through it... light turns green I start to go and I am nearly
creamed by a chicago police van running the red light for the cross
traffic.

Then there was the cop who demanded I ride on the sidewalk because he
said I didn't have a rear reflector (I did) and it was dark (it was
still clear summer evening daylight). Bonus: the sidewalk had a ton of
peds on it and is illegal to ride on in that town.

Should I go on? I've got more.... If you are in my area, the phrase
'bored suburban cop' should be something you are familiar with. It
didn't come out of nothing. They get bored and they start hasseling
people over minor things.

That reminds me, a couple weeks ago I got followed again.... cop is
waiting at a red signal on the coming side of the light. the signal goes
green and I go. Cop swings a u-turn and sits back there following. I
know he's following because I'm driving 5 under and he's not catching
up. Cops don't drive under the speed limit normally. after awhile he
gets bored and then swings another U-turn back to his original
direction. Not as exciting as the one ones in the years past that would
get frustrated with not having a violation to pull me over for and would
do a u-turn with the hammer down and the tires squealing when I got
home. lol.

Brent P

On 2008-05-22, r15757@aol.com <r15757@aol.com> wrote:
> On May 20, 7:12 am, Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>> ... Simple as
>> that. It pisses them off and they have nothing to argue with. Plus no
>> collateral damage.
>
>> Silly me, I don't want more drivers gunning for a lone bicyclist because
>> some group of riders pissed them off.
>
> Seems like you're getting your signals crossed there a little bit.
>
> But you are right -- riding strictly according to the law, especially
> if it involves 'lane-taking,' will piss off drivers.

Yeah... because if they cannot kiss up to the bumper of the SUV that's
in front of me, I'm slowing them down... never mind that the SUV in
front of me is blocking my forward progress at the speed I would like to
go at. Normal, rational drivers, who aren't a problem don't have an
issue with me taking the lane, because I do it only when needed. The
ones who do have a problem are those who would be a problem period.

Matthew T. Russotto

In article <4aa95638-4eb5-4585-a4d1-053357144fdc@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
Bob <hunrobe@aol.com> wrote:
>On May 21, 2:23=A0pm, russo...@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew T. Russotto)
>wrote:
>>
>> So the G-men just go. Then start an incident. Then arrest anyone
>> else involved in the incident they started. It's an old, old, trick;
>> goes back to Roman times at the very least.
>
>What you suggest is within the realm of possibility and may have even
>occurred on very rare occasions. It is extremely unlikely to happen
>except as an aberration though for several reasons. First, most C-M
>rides are good natured and, as a group, cops would rather let a few
>minor traffic infractions slide than take actions that turn a good
>natured event into a major hassle.

That depends on what their bosses have told them to do.

>Second, the overwhelming majority of cops don't like to have to use force.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, oh, please, stop, you'll kill me laughing.
--
There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.

N8N

On May 21, 3:15*pm, russo...@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew T. Russotto)
wrote:
> In article <7c745e96-c2a5-4396-8874-ea1787384...@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
>
> N8N *<njna...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >And I see cyclists doing it every day as well. *The solution is not to
> >try to one-up each other, the solution is to enforce the damn laws.
>
> Fix 'em first, or you end up in Aunt Judyland.

I don't really have a problem with current ROW, signaling, etc. rules
other than the facts that a) most people don't follow them and b)
there seem to be no consequences for failure to follow them.

nate

Bob

On May 22, 8:46*am, Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> On 2008-05-22, Bob <hunr...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 21, 8:16*pm, Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> >> On 2008-05-22, Bob <hunr...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >> > occurred on very rare occasions. It is extremely unlikely to happen
> >> > except as an aberration though for several reasons. First, most C-M
> >> > rides are good natured and, as a group, cops would rather let a few
> >> > minor traffic infractions slide than take actions that turn a good
> >> > natured event into a major hassle.
>
> >> Maybe in your area.... while I was driving I had a cop do a U-turn and
> >> come flying after me because I 'made a face at him'. And yes, I did make
> >> a face at him after he turned right across my path with his cellphone to
> >> his ear.
>
> > Brent, I *am* in your area and even if I weren't I'd stand by my
> > statement. Even accepting your story as 100% accurate doesn't change
> > it. Maybe the cop was having a bad day. Maybe he's simply not the best
> > cop around. Who knows? You don't and neither do I. What I do know is
> > judging a group of roughly 18,000 (an approximation of the number of
> > cops in the Chicago area) that must easily average 10 contacts with
> > the public each day by the actions of one cop in one instance on one
> > day is, to be kind, statistically unsound.
>
> Should I tell a few more stories for you? If douchebag cops were so
> rare, why is it that I've met so many of them.

I can think of several explanations, the most likely ones are that: A)
you are seriously exaggerating or B) making your stories up as you go
along. That leaves at least two more obvious explanations: C) you're
well known to the police in the areas you most frequent as a
knucklehead that's usually up to no good or D) you're off your meds. I
think I'll go with B.

Bob

On May 22, 1:21*pm, russo...@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew T. Russotto)
wrote:
> In article <4aa95638-4eb5-4585-a4d1-053357144...@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
>
> Bob *<hunr...@aol.com> wrote:
> >On May 21, 2:23=A0pm, russo...@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew T. Russotto)
> >wrote:
>
> >> So the G-men just go. Then start an incident. Then arrest anyone
> >> else involved in the incident they started. It's an old, old, trick;
> >> goes back to Roman times at the very least.
>
> >What you suggest is within the realm of possibility and may have even
> >occurred on very rare occasions. It is extremely unlikely to happen
> >except as an aberration though for several reasons. First, most C-M
> >rides are good natured and, as a group, cops would rather let a few
> >minor traffic infractions slide than take actions that turn a good
> >natured event into a major hassle.
>
> That depends on what their bosses have told them to do.
>
> >Second, the overwhelming majority of cops don't like to have to use force..
>
> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, oh, please, stop, you'll kill me laughing. *
> --
> * There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
> * result in a fully-depreciated one.

Gee, I get the feeling you don't like cops. I'm heartbroken.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Brent P

On 2008-05-22, Bob <hunrobe@aol.com> wrote:

>> Should I tell a few more stories for you? If douchebag cops were so
>> rare, why is it that I've met so many of them.

> I can think of several explanations, the most likely ones are that: A)
> you are seriously exaggerating or B) making your stories up as you go
> along. That leaves at least two more obvious explanations: C) you're
> well known to the police in the areas you most frequent as a
> knucklehead that's usually up to no good or D) you're off your meds. I
> think I'll go with B.

Keep that denial going.

Oh I forgot a good one from last year... I'm walking home with my dinner
from a family take-out place when I look up and this cop is pacing me
in his cruiser... I look and then keep on my way... I turn off the main
sidewalk on to walk to the door and the cop slams his cruiser to a stop
and jumps out coming after me yelling 'I want to talk to you'. It gets
worse from there... as three more cops in three more cruisers show up
right behind him... supposedly I matched the description of someone
that cracked a window at chain fast food place...

Oh, and I forgot the checkpoint stories....

I'm sure if I bought an SUV and just drove to work and back everyday and
never went out on foot or on bicycle and never drove late at night then
I could be in denial too...

But if you want to believe I'm lying that's your choice. Just remember
when it's you that gets the bogus ticket, when you get hassled.... it
will happen sooner or later, the police state is growing.

Bill Sornson

Bob wrote:
> On May 22, 8:46 am, Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>> On 2008-05-22, Bob <hunr...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On May 21, 8:16 pm, Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> On 2008-05-22, Bob <hunr...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>> occurred on very rare occasions. It is extremely unlikely to
>>>>> happen except as an aberration though for several reasons. First,
>>>>> most C-M rides are good natured and, as a group, cops would
>>>>> rather let a few minor traffic infractions slide than take
>>>>> actions that turn a good natured event into a major hassle.
>>
>>>> Maybe in your area.... while I was driving I had a cop do a U-turn
>>>> and come flying after me because I 'made a face at him'. And yes,
>>>> I did make a face at him after he turned right across my path with
>>>> his cellphone to his ear.
>>
>>> Brent, I *am* in your area and even if I weren't I'd stand by my
>>> statement. Even accepting your story as 100% accurate doesn't change
>>> it. Maybe the cop was having a bad day. Maybe he's simply not the
>>> best cop around. Who knows? You don't and neither do I. What I do
>>> know is judging a group of roughly 18,000 (an approximation of the
>>> number of cops in the Chicago area) that must easily average 10
>>> contacts with the public each day by the actions of one cop in one
>>> instance on one day is, to be kind, statistically unsound.
>>
>> Should I tell a few more stories for you? If douchebag cops were so
>> rare, why is it that I've met so many of them.
>
> I can think of several explanations, the most likely ones are that: A)
> you are seriously exaggerating or B) making your stories up as you go
> along. That leaves at least two more obvious explanations: C) you're
> well known to the police in the areas you most frequent as a
> knucklehead that's usually up to no good or D) you're off your meds. I
> think I'll go with B.

LOL I wonder what the "common denominator" was in all of Brent's alleged
encounters? LOL

Brent P

On 2008-05-23, Bill Sornson <askme@ask.me> wrote:

> LOL I wonder what the "common denominator" was in all of Brent's alleged
> encounters? LOL

I'm just one of those 'bad people' in your view eh? I deserve it? Must
be nice to live in denial.

Now go do what the officer tells you and lick his boots and maybe he
won't hurt you....

Tom Keats

In article <62d6f90b-2298-4216-8e1e-10aca53e0ea2@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
r15757@aol.com writes:
> On May 20, 7:12 am, Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>> ... Simple as
>> that. It pisses them off and they have nothing to argue with. Plus no
>> collateral damage.
>
>> Silly me, I don't want more drivers gunning for a lone bicyclist because
>> some group of riders pissed them off.
>
> Seems like you're getting your signals crossed there a little bit.

When drivers infantilely react to the presence of innocent riders
who are just politely but rightfully minding their own business,
it's not because of any perceived misdeeds of third-party riders
in past experiences; it's all about the here and now.

> But you are right -- riding strictly according to the law, especially
> if it involves 'lane-taking,' will piss off drivers.

Anything/everything pisses off many drivers,
and other unhappy people.

Sometimes I get pissed off, too. But I don't
take it out on non-involved people. And I'd
sooner take my aggressions out by biting the
damn heads off a bagful of jelly-babies and spittin'
'em out, than by actually threatening or harming
anyone with a couple of tons of mobile metal.

Oddly enough, people who drive strictly according
to the law don't piss me off at all. In fact I
appreciate their civil & civilized approach. But
there are so few of 'em.

The notion that the behaviours of some riders induces
misbehaviour by drivers against /all/ riders, is just
another tired excuse for drivers to misbehave against
all riders -- to be mean to somebody in a stupid
attempt to mitigate their infantile feelings of
hard-done-by-ness. And it's an excuse for inferiority
complexed/submissive riders to be hat-in-handedly
relegated and swept aside.

Plain 'n simple.

But ... <shrug> we've gotta co-exist somehow.
That's why we have laws. But laws should be
the last resort; I think sociability should be
the first resort. As I see it, Critical Mass
tests the area between really getting along
sociably, and arbitrarily getting along legally.

Y'know what numbers would really interest me
right now? How many bike riders get clobbered
by (unsuccessfully) trying to beat the train at
level crossings, vs how many drivers?


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca