Another reason to avoid critical mass...

Bill Sornson

One for the paranoid set:

http://www.comicspage.com/comicspag...r=%2Fbroomhilda

Brent P

On 2008-05-20, Jym Dyer <jym@econet.org> wrote:
> Brent P writes:
>
>> I propose Critical mass stop being assholes who run red
>> signals and generally make asses of themselves by ignoring
>> even the most basic rules of the roads, those rules that
>> even allow bicyclists to [yada yada yada] ...
>
>=v= Same old same old. *Yawn!*
>
>=v= Proposals work better when they're not based on false
> presuppositions, and also when they don't call people names.
> Despite the occasional media-exaggerated incidents of road
> rage (things that happen the other 353 days of the year, too),
> Critical Mass has continued to thrive for 15 years and has
> spread to over 400 locations worldwide.

Pissing off drivers world wide... It's classic GWB diplomacy. Anger
everyone that looks like your enemy to get your enemy to stop doing bad
things. Result = more enemy. Endless war. The Jesse Jackson theory of
activism.

> P.S.: Your ongoing "Critical Mas is blah blah blah" tirades
> have nothing to do with the news item that you posted.

There might be a whole half dozen threads I've been in regarding CM over
the last decade and this is the only one I started... just a tad bit of
exaggeration there.

Matthew T. Russotto

In article <4832ee8d$0$12935$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
Bill Sornson <askme@ask.me> wrote:
>
>That why you DELETED the rest of what Bob wrote? The article DID NOT
>MENTION C-M!

Yes, it does. Third paragraph from the bottom.

>(Just checked to make sure. Whole piece seems a little /too/
>blatant; cops/feds wouldn't be so cavalier.)

As long as people like you keep believing that, their very audacity is
their protection.
--
There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.

Bill Sornson

Matthew T. Russotto wrote:
> In article <4832ee8d$0$12935$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
> Bill Sornson <askme@ask.me> wrote:
{MORE COMPULSIVE OVER-SNIPPING!}

>> That why you DELETED the rest of what Bob wrote? The article DID NOT
>> MENTION C-M!

> Yes, it does. Third paragraph from the bottom.

Now when I click on the link it's gone, but I'll take your word for it.
Still, as Bob said (before it was censored repeatedly), the article wasn't
/about/ CM at all.

>> (Just checked to make sure. Whole piece seems a little /too/
>> blatant; cops/feds wouldn't be so cavalier.)

> As long as people like you keep believing that, their very audacity is
> their protection.

"People like you" LOL So the cops just happened to call some perp and say,
hey, we want you to spy on so & so months from now.

Yeah, right.

BS (apparent)

landotter

On May 20, 7:22 am, N8N <njna...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On May 20, 12:54 am, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
>
> > In article <x_idnU6ryZ9h0K_VnZ2dnUVZ_jKdn...@comcast.com>,
> > Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> > >http://articles.citypages.com/2008-...s/moles-wanted/
>
> > > Seems the old police and federal moles infiltrating groups and then
> > > possibly starting violence is still alive and well.
>
> > /Avoid/ Critical Mass?!
>
> Yes, why avoid critical mass? After all, the best way to get people
> to see your point of view is to act like a complete dick and break a
> bunch of laws.

Westboro Baptist is growing by leaps and bounds!

Bob

On May 20, 10:36*am, Jym Dyer <j...@econet.org> wrote:
> > Not only was C-M not mentioned in the alleged "news story" (I
> > say alleged and punctuate "news story" because it wasn't news,
> > just the unsubstantiated claims of a pseudonymous "source"
> > accompanied some thinly veiled editorializing by the writer
> > and the predictable outrage of a C-M attorney) but the *only*
> > mention of bicycles in the "news" portion appeared in the
> > first sentence ...
>
> =v= Given the nature of the meeting under discussion, there can
> only be a sole unsubstantiated claim for it. *His story can be
> found in slightly different form by a web search for "vegan
> potluck." *The lawyer is part of the National Lawyers Guild,
> not "a CM attorney," whatever that's supposed to mean.

It means exactly what it sounds like, an attorney that represents
Critical Mass. That was how the article described him, not as a member
of the National Lawyers Guild. If you find that offensive, blame the
CityPages author or better yet, just lighten up a little.

> =v= The article did mention CM later on, in particular the role
> of _agents_provocateur_ in the August 2007 Minneapolis ride,
> though it failed to point out that there are multiple sources
> corroborrating that information. *It also mentioned videotaped
> evidence of one such infiltrator in the New York City ride; in
> fact there are mulitple videotapes of multiple such incidents.

Reread what I wrote before getting bent out of shape. Did the
*article* mention C-M? Yes, but only after the writer stopped writing
a "news story" and started editorializing. If that sounds like
hairsplitting, it isn't. It's merely accuracy. If my placement of
quotation marks around "news" when I wrote, "...the *only* mention of
bicycles in the "news" portion appeared in the first sentence.",
wasn't clear enough I'm not sure how to make it any clearer.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Scott in SoCal

On Tue, 20 May 2008 08:08:42 -0700, Jym Dyer <jym@econet.org> wrote:

>Brent P writes:
>
>> I propose Critical mass stop being assholes who run red
>> signals and generally make asses of themselves by ignoring
>> even the most basic rules of the roads, those rules that
>> even allow bicyclists to [yada yada yada] ...
>
>=v= Same old same old. *Yawn!*
>
>=v= Proposals work better when they're not based on false
>presuppositions, and also when they don't call people names.

Whatever Critical Mass is proposing might gain more support if they
weren't so obnoxious about it. If their message is ostensibly "share
the road," it kinda gets lost when the road is completely taken over
by a bunch of pedalcyclists completely blocking traffic in all
directions.
--
"Dave's not here, man!"
- Tommy Chong

Tom Keats

In article <927936a4-db40-45f4-9a89-a465a68fc953@e39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
N8N <njnagel@hotmail.com> writes:
> On May 20, 12:54*am, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
>> In article <x_idnU6ryZ9h0K_VnZ2dnUVZ_jKdn...@comcast.com>,
>> * * * * Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com> writes:
>>
>>
>>
>> >http://articles.citypages.com/2008-...s/moles-wanted/
>>
>> > Seems the old police and federal moles infiltrating groups and then
>> > possibly starting violence is still alive and well.
>>
>> /Avoid/ Critical Mass?!
> Yes, why avoid critical mass? After all, the best way to get people
> to see your point of view is to act like a complete dick and break a
> bunch of laws.

We all get to see drivers' P'sOV via their own
acting like dicks and breaking a bunch of laws
in their own Critical Masses, every single day
of every year (as opposed to one day out of
every month.)

AISI, in some ways bicycle Critical Mass is a
mirror-reflection of drivers' behaviours, right
back in their faces. C-M informs drivers of their
own inflictions and afflictions upon people.
Apparently drivers don't like the taste of their
own medicine.

I encourage you to consider the societal effects
of your own urban car-driving. You get to go,
and life is good. But you're in a stream of urban
car traffic that keeps non-driving others from being
able to cross the street you're on, so they could get
to the shops they want to patronize.

Car traffic is bad for business and The Economy,
because it cuts customers off from shops.

And car traffic plugs itself up. At least bike
C-M keeps going, and gets out of everybody's way.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

N8N

On May 21, 5:44*am, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
> In article <927936a4-db40-45f4-9a89-a465a68fc...@e39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
> * * * * N8N <njna...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> > On May 20, 12:54*am, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
> >> In article <x_idnU6ryZ9h0K_VnZ2dnUVZ_jKdn...@comcast.com>,
> >> * * * * Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> >> >http://articles.citypages.com/2008-...s/moles-wanted/
>
> >> > Seems the old police and federal moles infiltrating groups and then
> >> > possibly starting violence is still alive and well.
>
> >> /Avoid/ Critical Mass?!
> > Yes, why avoid critical mass? *After all, the best way to get people
> > to see your point of view is to act like a complete dick and break a
> > bunch of laws.
>
> We all get to see drivers' P'sOV via their own
> acting like dicks and breaking a bunch of laws
> in their own Critical Masses, every single day
> of every year (as opposed to one day out of
> every month.)

And I see cyclists doing it every day as well. The solution is not to
try to one-up each other, the solution is to enforce the damn laws.

nate

Brent P

On 2008-05-21, Tom Keats <tkeats2005@hotmail.com> wrote:

> We all get to see drivers' P'sOV via their own
> acting like dicks and breaking a bunch of laws
> in their own Critical Masses, every single day
> of every year (as opposed to one day out of
> every month.)

I see similiar percentages of people acting like dicks and generally
behaving poorly with regards to right of way on the road regardless of
vehicle. Somewhat higher percentages for cabbies, rice boys, and of
course truckers.

> AISI, in some ways bicycle Critical Mass is a
> mirror-reflection of drivers' behaviours, right
> back in their faces. C-M informs drivers of their
> own inflictions and afflictions upon people.
> Apparently drivers don't like the taste of their
> own medicine.

It's the GWB policy of mirroring the terrorism to an entire population
that superficially looks like the terrorists. And surprise, all it does
is anger people and increase the ranks of terrorists.

By taking the assholishness of *SOME* drivers and mirroring it to *ALL*
drivers what you end up doing is getting drivers that weren't a problem
to decide to mirror your assholishness back at all bicyclists. CM is not
doing any good. It just convinces drivers who weren't a problem that
bicyclists deserve to be treated poorly.

Your 'us' vs. 'them' view simply creates a condition of perpetual 'war'.

The problem drivers never vanish, the 'need' for bicycle activism
never disappears because CM and others are out there agitating people
who weren't a problem. Find some bees that were minding their own
business out in the woods not bothering you and wack their hive with a
stick because some bee stung you once.. That's essentially what CM is
doing. Pissing off lots of drivers to get back at a minority of the
them. It's stupid unless you're in the activism business and need to
keep an enemy around.

If you really want to piss off the problem drivers, the thing to do is
ride 100% to the vehicle code. Don't give them an inch. assert your
right of way. Take the lane when needed. Don't gutter pass. Don't use
side walks. The regular decent drivers are not offended by this
behavior. The problem ones are and it frustrates them to no end IME. If
you want to see one really flip into a rage, change to the left lane and
pass them when they are going too slow for your tastes.

> I encourage you to consider the societal effects
> of your own urban car-driving. You get to go,
> and life is good. But you're in a stream of urban
> car traffic that keeps non-driving others from being
> able to cross the street you're on, so they could get
> to the shops they want to patronize.

Lol. And one can just walk through a stream of bicyclists? One's like CM
who don't even stop for red signals?

> Car traffic is bad for business and The Economy,
> because it cuts customers off from shops.

Ask shops how the chicago state-street ped mall worked out... clue: it
was a disaster.

> And car traffic plugs itself up. At least bike
> C-M keeps going, and gets out of everybody's way.

If a group of car drivers streamed through red signals and forced
everyone who wasn't following their route to sit and wait they would
move well too.

Most congestion is caused by poor driving. I see people doing the exact
same stupid congestion causing behaviors on bicycle frequently. In fact
its the reason I don't particularly find organized rides all that
enjoyable. The plodders ride 3 and 4 wide. This means when I catch up to
them I have to slow to their speed, wait for a gap in on coming traffic
and then hammer it around them. 25 miles of this can wear a person out
and make 75-100 miles much more difficult.

Scott in SoCal

On Wed, 21 May 2008 02:44:23 -0700, tkeats2005@hotmail.com (Tom Keats)
wrote:

>In article <927936a4-db40-45f4-9a89-a465a68fc953@e39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
> N8N <njnagel@hotmail.com> writes:
>> On May 20, 12:54*am, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
>>> In article <x_idnU6ryZ9h0K_VnZ2dnUVZ_jKdn...@comcast.com>,
>>> * * * * Brent P <tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com> writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >http://articles.citypages.com/2008-...s/moles-wanted/
>>>
>>> > Seems the old police and federal moles infiltrating groups and then
>>> > possibly starting violence is still alive and well.
>>>
>>> /Avoid/ Critical Mass?!
>> Yes, why avoid critical mass? After all, the best way to get people
>> to see your point of view is to act like a complete dick and break a
>> bunch of laws.
>
>We all get to see drivers' P'sOV via their own
>acting like dicks and breaking a bunch of laws
>in their own Critical Masses, every single day
>of every year (as opposed to one day out of
>every month.)
>
>AISI, in some ways bicycle Critical Mass is a
>mirror-reflection of drivers' behaviours, right
>back in their faces.

The problem is your "mirror" has a huge AMPLIFIER on it, and that
amplification is causing lots of distortion.

In nearly three decades of driving, I have never encountered an
organized group of automobile drivers who intentionally block an
intersection in order to prevent pedalcyclists from getting around -
let alone seen it happen "every single day of every year."
--
"Dave's not here, man!"
- Tommy Chong

DennisTheBald

I'm confused on a couple points, I'm hoping that one of the big
brained folks here can straighten me out.

First, how do the g-men go about infiltrating an event? I'm mean if
CM was a group that you could join like the klan I would get it, but
I've been led to believe that CM was pretty much just something that
happened and thems involved didn't really elect officers.

Second, other than CM being on friday and club rides on saturday,
what's the difference? Is it the outfits that they wear? Is it that
the club riders generally haul their bikes to the start with a MV &
the CMers just start out wherever they are? Is it that the clubs
often have a SUV or two trailing them to haul them home if they get to
sweaty?

Brent P

On 2008-05-21, DennisTheBald <DennisTheBald@gmail.com> wrote:

> First, how do the g-men go about infiltrating an event? I'm mean if
> CM was a group that you could join like the klan I would get it, but
> I've been led to believe that CM was pretty much just something that
> happened and thems involved didn't really elect officers.

They go in to a protest, a CM ride, etc and try to appear to be members
of the same group. Then when appearing to be a member of the group they
will do what they can to start violence even it means they pick up rocks
and throw them at cops. Once they get things started they disappear or
get 'arrested' and later let go. Even if they don't get things started
they've created the headline they set out to create anyway.

It works because many people fall for the group think like Tom takes
anyone who drives a car as deserving mistreatment because some drivers
mistreated bicyclists. Now that group that wants an investigation about
some government action, a return to the gold standard, or whatever
threatens the status-quo are labeled as violent kooks. It keeps the
masses from listening to the message.

> Second, other than CM being on friday and club rides on saturday,
> what's the difference? Is it the outfits that they wear? Is it that
> the club riders generally haul their bikes to the start with a MV &
> the CMers just start out wherever they are? Is it that the clubs
> often have a SUV or two trailing them to haul them home if they get to
> sweaty?

It has to do with where they are and what else is going on near by if it
warrants police/fed attention.

The thing is, the feds don't need to set up CM, CM does enough on their
own. Although I guess the news media doesn't spread it far and wide
without kicking it up a level.

Matthew T. Russotto

In article <7c745e96-c2a5-4396-8874-ea1787384eea@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
N8N <njnagel@hotmail.com> wrote:

>And I see cyclists doing it every day as well. The solution is not to
>try to one-up each other, the solution is to enforce the damn laws.

Fix 'em first, or you end up in Aunt Judyland.


--
There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.