Crap Shimano gears!!

Ted Mittelstaedt

Hi All,

Ok, my wife's new bike (well, probably a year old now) Sequoia, is already
hogging out the teeth on the gears on the rear hub.

I don't get this - the el-cheapo Kmart 10-speed bicycles I used to ride
when I was 20
years younger and pedaling with a lot more force than I'm sure my wife is,
never did this with their gears, even when the chain was covered with rust
and by all accounts should have stretched like a rubber band.

I've seen other people with newer bikes with the same problem. And
my wife refuses to ride in the rain, so it's not a lack of lube problem.

So, what is the deal here? Why is it I can buy a brand new o-ring chain,
forged aluminum sprocket and front sprocket for my Honda 750, apply
at least 50 times the amount of torque to that with the motorcycle engine,
and have that set last at least 6 years before it starts hogging out the
teeth? And that chain is exposed to the elements - and unlike my wife I
-do- ride in the rain.

Why can't a chain, and front and rear sprocket set on a brand new thousand
dollar bicycle last as long as a set on a $150 Kmart 10-speed special? And
why is the best the bicycle manufactures can come up with is the bushingless
chain - which although touted as "better" is really just a money-saving
thing, since it takes less parts to make? Where are the bicycle o-ring
chains? And why are the sprockets on expensive bikes made out of such
lame steel today compared to cheap, or old bikes?

Is it some secret agenda of the bicycle manufacturers to put parts on
these bikes that wear out quick so the owners have to keep taking them
back into the bike shop for new sprockets?

Ted

Paul M. Hobson

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Ok, my wife's new bike (well, probably a year old now) Sequoia, is already
> hogging out the teeth on the gears on the rear hub.

Meaning the teeth are worn down, or breaking off?

> I don't get this - the el-cheapo Kmart 10-speed bicycles I used to ride
> when I was 20
> years younger and pedaling with a lot more force than I'm sure my wife is,
> never did this with their gears, even when the chain was covered with rust
> and by all accounts should have stretched like a rubber band.
>
> I've seen other people with newer bikes with the same problem. And
> my wife refuses to ride in the rain, so it's not a lack of lube problem.

That doesn't mean that the chain is clean (or lubed).

> So, what is the deal here? Why is it I can buy a brand new o-ring chain,
> forged aluminum sprocket and front sprocket for my Honda 750, apply
> at least 50 times the amount of torque to that with the motorcycle engine,
> and have that set last at least 6 years before it starts hogging out the
> teeth? And that chain is exposed to the elements - and unlike my wife I
> -do- ride in the rain.

Motorcycles don't necessarily have more torque than cyclists. The
motors operate at significantly higher speeds (rpm) than a cyclist's
legs, however. Model year 2000 Honda Shadow has 65 ft-lbf of torque.
Simply standing standing on a pedal at my 135 lbf weight and 170 mm
cranks applies 75 ft-lbf of torque to my drive train.

<http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/honda/2000-honda-shadow-sabre-1364.html>

Your motorcycle also gears _down_, while bicycles gear _up_.

> Why can't a chain, and front and rear sprocket set on a brand new thousand
> dollar bicycle last as long as a set on a $150 Kmart 10-speed special?

There could be any number of reasons. Perhaps the chain was never
properly lubed. Maybe it got really dirty, then lubed so as to move the
grit to the inside of the chain wear it does more damage. Maybe your
wife spends a lot of time with the chain running at a sharp angle, which
will wear the whole system down faster.

> And
> why is the best the bicycle manufactures can come up with is the bushingless
> chain - which although touted as "better" is really just a money-saving
> thing, since it takes less parts to make?

Bushingless chains *are* better. I believe the late Sheldon Brown's
website explains why better than I ever could.

> Where are the bicycle o-ring
> chains? And why are the sprockets on expensive bikes made out of such
> lame steel today compared to cheap, or old bikes?

Not all cassettes are made equally. Look at the SRAM Red cassette, for
instance.

> Is it some secret agenda of the bicycle manufacturers to put parts on
> these bikes that wear out quick so the owners have to keep taking them
> back into the bike shop for new sprockets?

Probably.


--
Paul M. Hobson
..:change the f to ph to reply:.

Ecnerwal

In article <newscache$l3v31k$168$1@news.ipinc.net>,
"Ted Mittelstaedt" <tedm@toybox.placo.com> wrote:

> Ok, my wife's new bike (well, probably a year old now) Sequoia, is already
> hogging out the teeth on the gears on the rear hub.
>
> I don't get this - the el-cheapo Kmart 10-speed bicycles I used to ride
> when I was 20 years younger

and the chain was nearly twice the width of the modern,
narrow-so-you-can-have-lots-of-gears chain...

> Why is it I can buy a brand new o-ring chain,
> forged aluminum sprocket and front sprocket for my Honda 750, apply
> at least 50 times the amount of torque to that with the motorcycle engine,
> and have that set last at least 6 years before it starts hogging out the
> teeth? And that chain is exposed to the elements - and unlike my wife I
> -do- ride in the rain.

That chain is very considerably bigger yet, and on a bicycle you'd find
the power loss from o-rings objectionable in a way that your motorcycle
engine does not care much about. I ride a shafty M/C, and while the late
Mr. Brown's website shows a couple of pictures of those in bikes, I've
never seen one on a bicycle in the wild - at least partly due to the
inefficiency of bevel gears .vs. chain; with a low-power fixed input
(the pedal-pusher), losses that detract from locomotion are
objectionable.

As with any field of engineering, there are trade-offs - when you go to
a narrower chain to meet the marketing "requirement" that there be 9 or
10 gears on the rear sprocket, the force on the gear teeth goes up.

If you want to spend some large money on the problem, you could go to a
big fat chain and an internal geared (or the cool new CVT ball-drive)
hub. That's making a different engineering choice.

I'm not sure if you can still easily find actual 10-speed components (2
in front and 5 in back) but if so, that would be another route to
robustness - but of course it takes away the "30 speed" (not really 30
different usable ratios) flexibility that 10 in back and 3 in front
gives you.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

landotter

On May 19, 2:51 am, "Ted Mittelstaedt" <t...@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Ok, my wife's new bike (well, probably a year old now) Sequoia, is already
> hogging out the teeth on the gears on the rear hub.
>
> I don't get this - the el-cheapo Kmart 10-speed bicycles I used to ride
> when I was 20

Prolly a conspiracy.

That bike has nearly twice the gears in the same space. Shifts with a
flick of the pinky with near silence...there's no free lunch. That
said, not all cassettes are made equal. Sram PG 970s are pretty nice,
shiny, and $35. If it were my wife's bike, I'd throw one of those on
there and a fresh KMC chain--and enjoy the perfect part of the season.

Mike Jacoubowsky

| Ok, my wife's new bike (well, probably a year old now) Sequoia, is
already
| hogging out the teeth on the gears on the rear hub.

#1: How many miles does one year of riding represent?

#2: Have you measured the chain for elongation?

#3: Motorcycle chains aren't involved in the shifting of gears; they don't
have to move sideways. You do have the choice of an internal-shifting gear
system if you wish, at the expense of some efficiency and cost.

#4: If it's a conspiracy, it has nothing to do with bike shops. I'd bet the
majority of bikes go through life with only their original chain; there's
been no attempt to inform customers that chains are a normal wear item that
must be replaced.

#5: Since you only mention time, not miles, yes, it's true, a chain on a
$150 *Mart bike will almost always outlast the chain on a decent bike.
Because the decent bikes get ridden far more miles/year than the *Mart
bikes, which will be set aside with few miles because something has gone
wrong mechanically, or it's just not much fun to ride.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Ted Mittelstaedt" <tedm@toybox.placo.com> wrote in message
news:newscache$l3v31k$168$1@news.ipinc.net...
| Hi All,
|
| Ok, my wife's new bike (well, probably a year old now) Sequoia, is
already
| hogging out the teeth on the gears on the rear hub.
|
| I don't get this - the el-cheapo Kmart 10-speed bicycles I used to ride
| when I was 20
| years younger and pedaling with a lot more force than I'm sure my wife is,
| never did this with their gears, even when the chain was covered with rust
| and by all accounts should have stretched like a rubber band.
|
| I've seen other people with newer bikes with the same problem. And
| my wife refuses to ride in the rain, so it's not a lack of lube problem.
|
| So, what is the deal here? Why is it I can buy a brand new o-ring chain,
| forged aluminum sprocket and front sprocket for my Honda 750, apply
| at least 50 times the amount of torque to that with the motorcycle engine,
| and have that set last at least 6 years before it starts hogging out the
| teeth? And that chain is exposed to the elements - and unlike my wife I
| -do- ride in the rain.
|
| Why can't a chain, and front and rear sprocket set on a brand new
thousand
| dollar bicycle last as long as a set on a $150 Kmart 10-speed special?
And
| why is the best the bicycle manufactures can come up with is the
bushingless
| chain - which although touted as "better" is really just a money-saving
| thing, since it takes less parts to make? Where are the bicycle o-ring
| chains? And why are the sprockets on expensive bikes made out of such
| lame steel today compared to cheap, or old bikes?
|
| Is it some secret agenda of the bicycle manufacturers to put parts on
| these bikes that wear out quick so the owners have to keep taking them
| back into the bike shop for new sprockets?
|
| Ted
|
|

Frank Krygowski

On May 19, 3:51 am, "Ted Mittelstaedt" <t...@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Ok, my wife's new bike (well, probably a year old now) Sequoia, is already
> hogging out the teeth on the gears on the rear hub.
>
> I don't get this - the el-cheapo Kmart 10-speed bicycles I used to ride
> when I was 20
> years younger and pedaling with a lot more force than I'm sure my wife is,
> never did this with their gears, even when the chain was covered with rust
> and by all accounts should have stretched like a rubber band.
>
> I've seen other people with newer bikes with the same problem. And
> my wife refuses to ride in the rain, so it's not a lack of lube problem.
>
> So, what is the deal here? Why is it I can buy a brand new o-ring chain,
> forged aluminum sprocket and front sprocket for my Honda 750, apply
> at least 50 times the amount of torque to that with the motorcycle engine,
> and have that set last at least 6 years before it starts hogging out the
> teeth? And that chain is exposed to the elements - and unlike my wife I
> -do- ride in the rain.
>
> Why can't a chain, and front and rear sprocket set on a brand new thousand
> dollar bicycle last as long as a set on a $150 Kmart 10-speed special? And
> why is the best the bicycle manufactures can come up with is the bushingless
> chain - which although touted as "better" is really just a money-saving
> thing, since it takes less parts to make? Where are the bicycle o-ring
> chains? And why are the sprockets on expensive bikes made out of such
> lame steel today compared to cheap, or old bikes?
>
> Is it some secret agenda of the bicycle manufacturers to put parts on
> these bikes that wear out quick so the owners have to keep taking them
> back into the bike shop for new sprockets?
>
> Ted

I think there's a chance Ted doesn't understand what he's looking at.

Ted, what do you mean by "hogging out the teeth"? Do you mean all the
teeth on a sprocket are not uniform in shape? And that the sides of
the sprockets are not smooth, but are sort of grooved, and thinner in
places?

If so, it's because they're made that way on purpose. The shape of
the sprockets and teeth are specially designed to allow the chain to
snap quickly from one to the next when a rider shifts gears. It's a
design feature that has made shifting much easier than it was when you
applied all that force 20 years ago. In fact, if you go into a bike
shop and look at the brand new cogs, you'll see the same "problem."
Which is not a problem at all.

If your wife has ridden fewer than 10,000 miles on that bike during
the past year - which is an easy bet - there's no way she's "hogged
out" any teeth.

- Frank Krygowski

wizardB

Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On May 19, 3:51 am, "Ted Mittelstaedt" <t...@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>
>> Ok, my wife's new bike (well, probably a year old now) Sequoia, is already
>> hogging out the teeth on the gears on the rear hub.
>>
>> I don't get this - the el-cheapo Kmart 10-speed bicycles I used to ride
>> when I was 20
>> years younger and pedaling with a lot more force than I'm sure my wife is,
>> never did this with their gears, even when the chain was covered with rust
>> and by all accounts should have stretched like a rubber band.
>>
>> I've seen other people with newer bikes with the same problem. And
>> my wife refuses to ride in the rain, so it's not a lack of lube problem.
>>
>> So, what is the deal here? Why is it I can buy a brand new o-ring chain,
>> forged aluminum sprocket and front sprocket for my Honda 750, apply
>> at least 50 times the amount of torque to that with the motorcycle engine,
>> and have that set last at least 6 years before it starts hogging out the
>> teeth? And that chain is exposed to the elements - and unlike my wife I
>> -do- ride in the rain.
>>
>> Why can't a chain, and front and rear sprocket set on a brand new thousand
>> dollar bicycle last as long as a set on a $150 Kmart 10-speed special? And
>> why is the best the bicycle manufactures can come up with is the bushingless
>> chain - which although touted as "better" is really just a money-saving
>> thing, since it takes less parts to make? Where are the bicycle o-ring
>> chains? And why are the sprockets on expensive bikes made out of such
>> lame steel today compared to cheap, or old bikes?
>>
>> Is it some secret agenda of the bicycle manufacturers to put parts on
>> these bikes that wear out quick so the owners have to keep taking them
>> back into the bike shop for new sprockets?
>>
>> Ted
>
> I think there's a chance Ted doesn't understand what he's looking at.
>
> Ted, what do you mean by "hogging out the teeth"? Do you mean all the
> teeth on a sprocket are not uniform in shape? And that the sides of
> the sprockets are not smooth, but are sort of grooved, and thinner in
> places?
>
> If so, it's because they're made that way on purpose. The shape of
> the sprockets and teeth are specially designed to allow the chain to
> snap quickly from one to the next when a rider shifts gears. It's a
> design feature that has made shifting much easier than it was when you
> applied all that force 20 years ago. In fact, if you go into a bike
> shop and look at the brand new cogs, you'll see the same "problem."
> Which is not a problem at all.
>
> If your wife has ridden fewer than 10,000 miles on that bike during
> the past year - which is an easy bet - there's no way she's "hogged
> out" any teeth.
>
> - Frank Krygowski
He's probably referring to hooking of the teeth.The reason the k-mart
bikes cog set and front rings last is they are steel while in the name
of weight saving the ones on the thousand dollar bike are aluminum and
more likely to wear being made of a softer material.

Hank

On May 19, 10:38*am, wizardB <wiza...@gmx.net> wrote:
> Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On May 19, 3:51 am, "Ted Mittelstaedt" <t...@toybox.placo.com> wrote:
> >> Hi All,
>
> >> * Ok, my wife's new bike (well, probably a year old now) Sequoia, is already
> >> hogging out the teeth on the gears on the rear hub.
>
> >> * I don't get this - the el-cheapo Kmart 10-speed bicycles I used to ride
> >> when I was 20
> >> years younger and pedaling with a lot more force than I'm sure my wife is,
> >> never did this with their gears, even when the chain was covered with rust
> >> and by all accounts should have stretched like a rubber band.
>
> >> * I've seen other people with newer bikes with the same problem. *And
> >> my wife refuses to ride in the rain, so it's not a lack of lube problem..
>
> >> * So, what is the deal here? *Why is it I can buy a brand new o-ring chain,
> >> forged aluminum sprocket and front sprocket for my Honda 750, apply
> >> at least 50 times the amount of torque to that with the motorcycle engine,
> >> and have that set last at least 6 years before it starts hogging out the
> >> teeth? *And that chain is exposed to the elements - and unlike my wife I
> >> -do- ride in the rain.
>
> >> * Why can't a chain, and front and rear sprocket set on a brand new thousand
> >> dollar bicycle last as long as a set on a $150 Kmart 10-speed special? *And
> >> why is the best the bicycle manufactures can come up with is the bushingless
> >> chain - which although touted as "better" is really just a money-saving
> >> thing, since it takes less parts to make? *Where are the bicycle o-ring
> >> chains? *And why are the sprockets on expensive bikes made out of such
> >> lame steel today compared to cheap, or old bikes?
>
> >> * Is it some secret agenda of the bicycle manufacturers to put parts on
> >> these bikes that wear out quick so the owners have to keep taking them
> >> back into the bike shop for new sprockets?
>
> >> Ted
>
> > I think there's a chance Ted doesn't understand what he's looking at.
>
> > Ted, what do you mean by "hogging out the teeth"? *Do you mean all the
> > teeth on a sprocket are not uniform in shape? *And that the sides of
> > the sprockets are not smooth, but are sort of grooved, and thinner in
> > places?
>
> > If so, it's because they're made that way on purpose. *The shape of
> > the sprockets and teeth are specially designed to allow the chain to
> > snap quickly from one to the next when a rider shifts gears. *It's a
> > design feature that has made shifting much easier than it was when you
> > applied all that force 20 years ago. *In fact, if you go into a bike
> > shop and look at the brand new cogs, you'll see the same "problem."
> > Which is not a problem at all.
>
> > If your wife has ridden fewer than 10,000 miles on that bike during
> > the past year - which is an easy bet - there's no way she's "hogged
> > out" any teeth.
>
> > - Frank Krygowski
>
> He's probably referring to hooking of the teeth.The reason the k-mart
> bikes cog set and front rings last is they are steel while in the name
> of weight saving the ones on the thousand dollar bike are aluminum and
> more likely to wear *being made of a softer material.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I guarantee you that no $1000 bike has cassette cogs made of anything
except steel. MAYBE on $2000 bikes, you'll see some Ti cogs. $1000
gets you Tiagra with a 105 RD. Probably an HG50 9-speed cluster.

Eric Vey

Hank wrote:

> I guarantee you that no $1000 bike has cassette cogs made of anything
> except steel. MAYBE on $2000 bikes, you'll see some Ti cogs. $1000
> gets you Tiagra with a 105 RD. Probably an HG50 9-speed cluster.

$1000 bike and you get a $35 (retail price) cassette. Jeepers, what a deal.

Tom Kunich

"Eric Vey" <junker@ericvey.com> wrote in message
news:g0sq9e$o8j$1@news.datemas.de...
> Hank wrote:
>
>> I guarantee you that no $1000 bike has cassette cogs made of anything
>> except steel. MAYBE on $2000 bikes, you'll see some Ti cogs. $1000
>> gets you Tiagra with a 105 RD. Probably an HG50 9-speed cluster.
>
> $1000 bike and you get a $35 (retail price) cassette. Jeepers, what a
> deal.

You can always build your own bike for $1000.

Hank

On May 19, 2:31*pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> "Eric Vey" <jun...@ericvey.com> wrote in message
>
> news:g0sq9e$o8j$1@news.datemas.de...
>
> > Hank wrote:
>
> >> I guarantee you that no $1000 bike has cassette cogs made of anything
> >> except steel. MAYBE on $2000 bikes, you'll see some Ti cogs. $1000
> >> gets you Tiagra with a 105 RD. Probably an HG50 9-speed cluster.
>
> > $1000 bike and you get a $35 (retail price) cassette. Jeepers, what a
> > deal.
>
> You can always build your own bike for $1000.

Nashbar Frame & fork: $250
low-end wheelzinnabox: $150
Sora groupset: $300
Cheapest bar/stem/seatpost/saddle/tires you can find: $100

And the cherry on top:
Dura-Ace Ti Cassette: $200!

landotter

On May 19, 5:13 pm, Hank <h...@wirtznet.net> wrote:
> On May 19, 2:31 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
> > "Eric Vey" <jun...@ericvey.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:g0sq9e$o8j$1@news.datemas.de...
>
> > > Hank wrote:
>
> > >> I guarantee you that no $1000 bike has cassette cogs made of anything
> > >> except steel. MAYBE on $2000 bikes, you'll see some Ti cogs. $1000
> > >> gets you Tiagra with a 105 RD. Probably an HG50 9-speed cluster.
>
> > > $1000 bike and you get a $35 (retail price) cassette. Jeepers, what a
> > > deal.
>
> > You can always build your own bike for $1000.
>
> Nashbar Frame & fork: $250
> low-end wheelzinnabox: $150
> Sora groupset: $300
> Cheapest bar/stem/seatpost/saddle/tires you can find: $100
>
> And the cherry on top:
> Dura-Ace Ti Cassette: $200!

Barend mirror $10
To admire teh awesomeness of cassette.

jim beam

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Ok, my wife's new bike (well, probably a year old now) Sequoia, is already
> hogging out the teeth on the gears on the rear hub.
>
> I don't get this - the el-cheapo Kmart 10-speed bicycles I used to ride
> when I was 20
> years younger and pedaling with a lot more force than I'm sure my wife is,
> never did this with their gears, even when the chain was covered with rust
> and by all accounts should have stretched like a rubber band.
>
> I've seen other people with newer bikes with the same problem. And
> my wife refuses to ride in the rain, so it's not a lack of lube problem.
>
> So, what is the deal here? Why is it I can buy a brand new o-ring chain,
> forged aluminum sprocket and front sprocket for my Honda 750, apply
> at least 50 times the amount of torque to that with the motorcycle engine,
> and have that set last at least 6 years before it starts hogging out the
> teeth? And that chain is exposed to the elements - and unlike my wife I
> -do- ride in the rain.
>
> Why can't a chain, and front and rear sprocket set on a brand new thousand
> dollar bicycle last as long as a set on a $150 Kmart 10-speed special? And
> why is the best the bicycle manufactures can come up with is the bushingless
> chain - which although touted as "better" is really just a money-saving
> thing, since it takes less parts to make? Where are the bicycle o-ring
> chains? And why are the sprockets on expensive bikes made out of such
> lame steel today compared to cheap, or old bikes?
>
> Is it some secret agenda of the bicycle manufacturers to put parts on
> these bikes that wear out quick so the owners have to keep taking them
> back into the bike shop for new sprockets?
>
> Ted
>
>


cT = 0.8

yes, thinner sprockets wear faster. slightly. but they come on bikes
that shift better, perform better, and are much more enjoyable to ride.
live with it. or go fixed. or ride crap. your call.

ps. i'm with you on the o-ring chain. for road riding, it's not
necessary, but for muddy mtb, cross, etc, i'd be interested to try using
one just for the sake of experiment. really bad mud can seize up a
chain on a long ride meaning you have to keep getting off to lube it.
o-ring would do nothing to prevent cog wear, but if it meant you could
keep riding, it would probably be worth a small friction penalty for
extreme conditions.

Ryan Cousineau

In article
<f9b332ca-d499-4c1e-9b50-4f03ed945464@w8g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
Hank <hank@wirtznet.net> wrote:

> On May 19, 2:31*pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> > "Eric Vey" <jun...@ericvey.com> wrote in message
> >
> > news:g0sq9e$o8j$1@news.datemas.de...
> >
> > > Hank wrote:
> >
> > >> I guarantee you that no $1000 bike has cassette cogs made of anything
> > >> except steel. MAYBE on $2000 bikes, you'll see some Ti cogs. $1000
> > >> gets you Tiagra with a 105 RD. Probably an HG50 9-speed cluster.
> >
> > > $1000 bike and you get a $35 (retail price) cassette. Jeepers, what a
> > > deal.
> >
> > You can always build your own bike for $1000.
>
> Nashbar Frame & fork: $250
> low-end wheelzinnabox: $150
> Sora groupset: $300
> Cheapest bar/stem/seatpost/saddle/tires you can find: $100
>
> And the cherry on top:
> Dura-Ace Ti Cassette: $200!

That's actually a really impressive spec, especially since the $300
price of a Sora group seems legit.

But you're missing a headset, probably the saddle clamp, and you're
pricing assembly at $0. At which point, even discounting the awesome Ti
Cassette (which won't, ahem, actually work with a Sora 9v group) you
have spec'd a $700 bike for $800.

That said, I did find a D-A 9 cassette with two Ti cogs for $120:

<http://www.triathletesports.com/Pro...tCode=689228004
924-DSS3&click=8694>

And of course, all the cool kids have reverted to real steel for their
cassettes, thanks to the cleverly light SRAM PowerDome design, which
trades considerable cost for being both light and durable:

<https://www.bikebuster.com/details/320103.html?vat=0&currency=usd>

It's a lot of machining.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."